Tomorrow it will be 150 years...

[Axe]

...since the 20th Maine saved the Union flank. (I'm a Canadian Civil War buff )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Round_Top

Medal of Honour recipient Joshua Chamberlain is one of my heroes -- a college professor (and later governor of Maine) who turned out to be a exemplary leader and soldier.



A few years ago I finally made the pilgrimage to Gettysburg and got to stand where the 20th refused the flank and -- almost out of ammunition and desperate -- made the bayonet charge that secured the left on Day Two. And while I detest what the South represented, I do appreciate the fighting spirit of the Alabama and Texas boys who attacked again and again in terrible conditions.



While there are some historians who dissent, the majority of them conclude that had the 20th not held the line, the Confederates could have rolled up the line as far as Cemetery Ridge by nightfall, all but guaranteeing a victory for the Rebs on Day Three.

The Battle for Little Round Top starts at 2:05:16 (although I would suggest watching all of it) -- great movie. A little over the top at times with the soundtrack, but I really enjoyed Tom Berenger's, Sam Elliott's and Jeff Daniel's performances.

The scene right before at 2:03:30 is pretty intense with John Bell Hood arguing with Longstreet about the pending attack.

"Now sir, if you are ready, why don't you take that hill."

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcaRk0ZRJ4[/video]

[sleewell]

The Killer Angels: A Novel of the Civil War

this book is awesome, a must read. ive been there too, its very powerful.

[ovid9]

Yeah, actually being at Gettysburg is a weird and amazing experience. Its such an idyllic setting, yet, you can still visualize the fighting and horror that went on.

And seeing the field where Pickett's Charge occurred you can't help but think, "Really Lee, you honestly thought that was going to work?"

And damned if it still almost didn't but...*shudders* ugh.

[Axe]

The Killer Angels: A Novel of the Civil War

this book is awesome, a must read. ive been there too, its very powerful.

Yeah, it's a great book.

Anything by Bruce Catton is good too, particularly A Stillness at Appomattox.

And if you can spare the time (3,000+ pages!) and money I can't recommend enough Shelby Foote's magnificent trilogy.

http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-Trilogy ... volume+set

[Axe]

Yeah, actually being at Gettysburg is a weird and amazing experience. Its such an idyllic setting, yet, you can still visualize the fighting and horror that went on.

And seeing the field where Pickett's Charge occurred you can't help but think, "Really Lee, you honestly thought that was going to work?"

And damned if it still almost didn't but...*shudders* ugh.

I know, right? I was standing where the charge started and even though I'm only an armchair strategist the thought of crossing those fields under fire from the high ground made my stomach flop.

I don't think we'll ever have an answer to why Lee failed so badly that day after so many brilliant others. The conventional wisdom is that he was trapped by events -- he couldn't disengage in the face of two enemy corps and his position was worse than the Union's so he felt the only option was to attack. He also thought abandoning Gettysburg would result in a catastrophic drop in morale.

Historians still ask the same question about Napoleon at Waterloo. (With some attributing his apparent torpor on his hemorrhoids )

Buford is also another of my heroes -- the combination of him getting his dander up and holding the Rebs until Reynolds came up -- and Heth getting in way over his head despite Lee's orders -- would have huge implications on the outcome of the battle.

[PurpleTrails]

Yeah, actually being at Gettysburg is a weird and amazing experience. Its such an idyllic setting, yet, you can still visualize the fighting and horror that went on.

And seeing the field where Pickett's Charge occurred you can't help but think, "Really Lee, you honestly thought that was going to work?"

And damned if it still almost didn't but...*shudders* ugh.

I know, right? I was standing where the charge started and even though I'm only an armchair strategist the thought of crossing those fields under fire from the high ground made my stomach flop.

I don't think we'll ever have an answer to why Lee failed so badly that day after so many brilliant others. The conventional wisdom is that he was trapped by events -- he couldn't disengage in the face of two enemy corps and his position was worse than the Union's so he felt the only option was to attack. He also thought abandoning Gettysburg would result in a catastrophic drop in morale.

Historians still ask the same question about Napoleon at Waterloo. (With some attributing his apparent torpor on his hemorrhoids )

Buford is also another of my heroes -- the combination of him getting his dander up and holding the Rebs until Reynolds came up -- and Heth getting in way over his head despite Lee's orders -- would have huge implications on the outcome of the battle.

I saw an article a day or two ago where it was hypothesized that, because of the way the terrain laid out, from Lee's observation point he couldn't see the vast number of troops on the Union left flank. So, he ordered Longstreet's attack thinking that he was hitting a soft point, and that by taking the high ground at little round top would have been able to direct fire down the length of the Union lines.

The guy used a GIS system and detailed records of where the troops had been to simulate what Lee could have seen, and low and behold you really couldn't see troops. That still doesn't really explain why he ordered Pickett's charge, but does better explain the rest.

I have never been to Gettysburg but it is definitely on my bucket list.

[Axe]

Also, Lee's up-to-then brilliant cavalry leader J.E.B. Stuart was off on a joy ride between the Army of the Potomac and D.C. for several days instead of reporting the enemy's strength and movement.

Check out the scene when he finally shows up -- the content of their conversation was not recorded, but it was later reported Lee's "frosty" greeting was as severe a rebuke as he ever gave one of his favourites -- between the two at 2:55:57.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcaRk0ZRJ4[/video]

[benjamin801]

I was a major Civil War buff as a kid and teenager, and growing up in Maryland, I was within an easy drive of most of the important battlegrounds. I really have no idea how many hours I've spent walking at Gettysburg, but it must be close to a hundred if not more. Hell, it may be close to a hundred just from Boy Scout trips.

I may be the only person alive who's played Avalon Hill's Gettysburg board game through to completion multiple times...alone.

[Axe]

I may be the only person alive who's played Avalon Hill's Gettysburg board game through to completion multiple times...alone.

I used to play endless hours of Sid Meier's Gettysburg. At first I had no idea what I was doing so I'd make everyone charge.

Including the artillery.

[ovid9]

I was a major Civil War buff as a kid and teenager, and growing up in Maryland, I was within an easy drive of most of the important battlegrounds. I really have no idea how many hours I've spent walking at Gettysburg, but it must be close to a hundred if not more. Hell, it may be close to a hundred just from Boy Scout trips.

I may be the only person alive who's played Avalon Hill's Gettysburg board game through to completion multiple times...alone.

I never had that one, but I played many Avalon Hill games by myself when I couldn't berate my little brother into playing.

I'd even be nice and have them all set up for him.

I used to play endless hours of Sid Meier's Gettysburg. At first I had no idea what I was doing so I'd make everyone charge.

Including the artillery.

I had this AWESOME freeware Civil War game. It was fairly simplistic, no active combat or anything. It pretty much would just degenerate into a horrific war of attrition. Well, a MORE horrific war of attrition.

[Telephant]

Sam Houston tried to tell those motherfuckers that succeeding was a bad idea. Whats that famous quote of his? Something like, "The North isn't hot headed like the south. They are cold and calculating and will be the ruin of us."

I have never been to Gettysburg but it is definitely on my bucket list.

And this.

[Axe]

"Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives you may win Southern independence, but I doubt it. The North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche." -- Sam Houston

[Telephant]

"Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives you may win Southern independence, but I doubt it. The North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche." -- Sam Houston

Ya that quote is kickass. Sam Houston was the man.

[Meelosh]

They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates.

[benjamin801]

"Let me tell you what is coming. After the sacrifice of countless millions of treasure and hundreds of thousands of lives you may win Southern independence, but I doubt it. The North is determined to preserve this Union. They are not a fiery, impulsive people as you are, for they live in colder climates. But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche." -- Sam Houston

Sam Houston clearly had a premonition of guys like Grant and Meade: nobody's idea of a dashing hero, nobody you'd write a poem about, but just a couple of fucking sledgehammers who weren't afraid to put their superior numbers and resources to brutal use.

[Cirrus]

As a Scottish guy who grew up in England I have no knowledge of the American Civil War, but it sounds interesting...

[Axe]

"But when they begin to move in a given direction, they move with the steady momentum and perseverance of a mighty avalanche." -- Sam Houston

That pretty much sums up American intervention in the Second World War, doesn't it?

[Axe]

As a Scottish guy who grew up in England I have no knowledge of the American Civil War, but it sounds interesting...

You should check out the scene between Longstreet and Fremantle starting at 1:54:35 where Fremantle discusses the Civil War from an English perspective.

(Historical accuracy note -- Fremantle's uniform would not have worn a bright red uniform. The director did this so the audience wouldn't be confused; Fremantle's actual British uniform would have been dark blue and similar to that of a Union officer. The real Fremantle never wore a uniform during his American trip.)

General Sir Arthur James Lyon Fremantle, GCMG, CB (November 1835 – 25 September 1901) was a British Army officer and a notable British witness to the Battle of Gettysburg during the American Civil War. Whilst holding the rank of "Captain and Lieutenant Colonel" he spent three months (from April 2 until July 16, 1863) in North America, traveling through parts of the Confederate States of America and the Union. Contrary to popular belief, Colonel Fremantle was not an official representative of the United Kingdom; instead, he was something of a tourist.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTcaRk0ZRJ4[/video]