the IRS

[sleewell]

u mad?

govt waste, incompetence, lies, lack of accountability, targeting special interest groups and possibly their donors - just another day in washington or is this worse than normal?

I believe the head of the IRS was appointed by bush but is obama to blame for being in office when this particular shitstorm all went down? govt waste is clearly nothing new though nor the incompetence, lies and lack of accountability.

[nightflameauto]

Meh. Seems like this pendulum swings both ways with the IRS. The only real difference is the right wingers whine more about it when it swings against them. If you check into the history there was just as much scrutiny of pet left wing projects when Bush was in office via the IRS. The Dems being the giant fucking pussies they are, just didn't say anything about it. Or they weren't bright enough to connect the dots. Either way.

It's tough for me to get worked up about Washington taking the unlubed baseball bat to our sphincters anymore. It happens so often I've taken to having a fluffer prep me each morning before I go to work with a lube enema.

[sleewell]

i tend to agree. seems like the repubs are just mad they lost however lines were crossed but it goes both ways. resembles the monica lewinski situation when 95% of the accusers were nailing someone other than their wife. either way its washington; all they know how to do is waste our money and really there is nothing we can do about it. im sure they will spend a lot more time and money figuring out the obvious that govt wastes a lot of time and money and the cycle will just continue on with no real resolution.

[***1776***]

When did the Bush treasurey specificly target left wing groups? When did it happen it before a election? (like the IRS did before 2010 and 2012)? This is some serious shit and needs to be examined to find out what happened


Anyway trying to 'poo-poo' and say Oooo this is not a big deal, yadda yadda, needs to have their head examined - this is scary partison shit and shouldnt be tolerated by either party. This is clearly a abuse of power and needs to be addressed ASAP


Even Obama (to his credit) has condemned this and said shit like this should not be tolerated on any level. -- Now will the Reps beat the drums and try to politicize it and score some points? im sure they will, but the bottom line is shit like this should not be tolerated on any level, dont try to excuse this behavior, it comes across as weaksauce imo

[nightflameauto]

Anyway trying to 'poo-poo' and say Oooo this is not a big deal this needs to have their head examined - this is scary partison shit and shouldnt be tolerated by either party.

Are you trying to say I'm being partison by saying both parties are ramming us as often and as hard as they can? I'm certainly not saying it's not a big deal, but it's definitely not any bigger of a deal than the shit that's been going on for as long as I've been aware of politics on any level. It isn't going to change just because some folks are gonna beat the drum as hard as they can over it for a good sound byte or two.

[***1776***]

No not at all, night im not singling you out at all

There was another thread (a couple days ago) where people tried to 'splain it away' and blame Republicans for the abuse of power and thats just insanity and so wrong. --- People should be pissed or upset at the abusive IRS and not the citizens it targeted, that makes no sense

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvOakNtGhzM[/video]


This is the 1st video i saw when the video broke, and it says alot - the IRS/treasury doesnt look good and we need to find out more information (who, what, where and when) a real investigation should be done, but sadly some will see it as a 'witch-hunt' which it should not be considered that imo

[ComOp]

When did the Bush treasurey specificly target left wing groups? When did it happen it before a election? (like the IRS did before 2010 and 2012)? This is some serious shit and needs to be examined to find out what happened


Anyway trying to 'poo-poo' and say Oooo this is not a big deal, yadda yadda, needs to have their head examined - this is scary partison shit and shouldnt be tolerated by either party. This is clearly a abuse of power and needs to be addressed ASAP


Even Obama (to his credit) has condemned this and said shit like this should not be tolerated on any level. -- Now will the Reps beat the drums and try to politicize it and score some points? im sure they will, but the bottom line is shit like this should not be tolerated on any level, dont try to excuse this behavior, it comes across as weaksauce imo

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/27/us/po ... l?hp&_r=3&

I don't know.. I mean, I worked for CA's franchise tax board and on the level that these people were at? You have to understand these were office drones, the kind of government employees who have a massive unending stack of work to do in a completely thankless environment. It is more easy than you would think for those kinds of employees to misunderstand a directive and make across the board blunders because they were simply trying to get through a stack of work.

[sleewell]

devils advocate: isnt a paycheck a thank you for doing your job? sounds like they also were treated to some pretty lavish retreats too. doesnt sound like they were kicked and beaten working 120 hours a week for pennies at a bangladesh sweatshop by any means.

[ComOp]

devils advocate: isnt a paycheck a thank you for doing your job? sounds like they also were treated to some pretty lavish retreats too. doesnt sound like they were kicked and beaten working 120 hours a week for pennies at a bangladesh sweatshop by any means.

Really? The people in that office doing that work were going to retreats? Do you have that link by chance?

[sleewell]

yahoo dan'd:

50 million is a good chunk of change

http://news.yahoo.com/irs-woes-grow-report-conference-spending-072518222.html

[Lloyd Blankfein]

"Just trying to get through a stack of work."

lol. Usually when people try to 'get through' work, oversights are made and issues slip through the cracks. However, these poor people, as you put it, in a thankless environment who are just worked to the bone singled out organizations, audited them- only to create a bigger stack of work to get through.

Think about that.

Thank about it real hard. Then reply.

[ComOp]

*edit dbl posted*

[ComOp]

yahoo dan'd:

50 million is a good chunk of change

http://news.yahoo.com/irs-woes-grow-report-conference-spending-072518222.html

Ah gotcha, so not those IRS employees directly, but a conference for the managers/department heads.

[ComOp]

"Just trying to get through a stack of work."

lol. Usually when people try to 'get through' work, oversights are made and issues slip through the cracks. However, these poor people, as you put it, in a thankless environment who are just worked to the bone singled out organizations, audited them- only to create a bigger stack of work to get through.

Think about that.

Thank about it real hard. Then reply.

That's not the way I read it. It looks like they were getting a flood new applications and started sorting ones that had "tea party" or "patriot" into the closer scrutiny file because they got a memo from their DC law folks in order to get through their new apps faster. The issue that these groups are upset about is that there was a delay as a result.

Think about that real hard then reply.

[Lloyd Blankfein]

You still make no sense. Your math logic doesn't add up.

People who try to rush through stacks of paper work don't scrutinize and create more paperwork. They breeze through it and make oversights.

If you retract your statement, then it'd make sense. But as it stands, you painted a picture from your own experience of under thanked, overworked drones trying to just rush through paperwork.

But the proof is in the pudding, these guys are combing through with fine teeth targeting groups and setting them aside. Thus, creating more paperwork.

Either way, I don't mind it. I'm focusing on your statement, not what has happened at the IRS.

[sleewell]

generally its not the low level underling paper pushers who actually create the policies. my point was that we spent 50 mill to pamper the people who thought this was a good idea. wasnt really making a point on the socioeconomic differences between upper and middle management and entry level positions.

[***1776***]

"Just trying to get through a stack of work."

lol. Usually when people try to 'get through' work, oversights are made and issues slip through the cracks. However, these poor people, as you put it, in a thankless environment who are just worked to the bone singled out organizations, audited them- only to create a bigger stack of work to get through.

Think about that.

Thank about it real hard. Then reply.

That's not the way I read it. It looks like they were getting a flood new applications and started sorting ones that had "tea party" or "patriot" into the closer scrutiny file because they got a memo from their DC law folks in order to get through their new apps faster. The issue that these groups are upset about is that there was a delay as a result.

Think about that real hard then reply.

I think your REALLY stretching it and being naive

You can actually make the case the other way (that they were clearly 'targeted') instead of saying ooo it was a delay or a mistake or lots paperwork etc

There is a political element to this and your trying to say o no its not, its just co-incidental/mistakes and thats a stretch, a BIG ONE imo. I think the case can be made that they were targeted easier than saying it was a mistake based on some of the evidence and that liberal groups had no issues

[ComOp]

You still make no sense. Your math logic doesn't add up.

People who try to rush through stacks of paper work don't scrutinize and create more paperwork. They breeze through it and make oversights.

If you retract your statement, then it'd make sense. But as it stands, you painted a picture from your own experience of under thanked, overworked drones trying to just rush through paperwork.

But the proof is in the pudding, these guys are combing through with fine teeth targeting groups and setting them aside. Thus, creating more paperwork.

Either way, I don't mind it. I'm focusing on your statement, not what has happened at the IRS.

I understand what you are saying, but here is what you are missing... See, what was happening is that they had stacks of NEW apps. The NEW apps were the work they were trying to shortcut and get through. Government agencies usually have deadlines for new paper work, things that have to be reviewed/audited can wait. So wait they do. To get through stacks of NEW paperwork, they look for any reason to get that NEW app done or into the delay bin. Remember, government agencies aren't like private businesses... Customer service isn't king. What is king, is following procedures as by the book as possible. Low level employees who bend the rules (or follow bad rules blindly) end up causing *gasp* politicized scandals. Which is why they try to follow the letter of the procedure no matter what.

The stack of apps to review, the delayed paperwork stack, was pushed aside for another day when time wouldn't matter.

[***1776***]

Arab i dont disagree alot with your last couple of posts


but if we are talking THIS specific case (IRS and targeting conservative groups and individuals) was targeted before elections (2010 and 2012) in this instance its very difficult to deflect and not see what was happening here


You want to stop 501C and other pacts?.....
You want to stop tax exempt status?......
etc, etc?...............

.... Those are all discussions for another day (and valid, maybe we can tweak some rules and i wont argue) but im talking *THESE* specific cases were political and should not be tolerated or tried to poo-poo and say o no biggie. Obama himself said this is BS and should not be tolerated (good for him!)... Hearings should settle this once and for all, who knew and what and where, simple...



PS - The new IRS chairman Danny Weurffal, (sp?) said in hearings today (monday 6/3) that the IRS agency has "betrayed Americas trust", and they need to earn it back, good for him, thats a good 1st step!!

[Meelosh]

pretty much have been on nakedarab's side, weeks ago. Surprised this is still being talked about.

[ovid9]

Seeing as how we're still spending about $186 million a day in Iraq even after withdrawal, I find it hard to get worked up over $50 million in waste.

Is it waste? Of course, but considering the magnitude of waste that goes on wholesale (The Joint Strike Fighter project, the Osprey project which has killed how many of our marines?, the subcontracting of war to private contractors and all these things are in just a fairly limited scope, we could broaden it and then we're talking real money, subsidies to industries that are hugely profitable, etc.) fully supported by both sides of the aisle so dwarfs $50 million in one year, I really can't get all that pissed by it.

I mean, the gov't spends approximately $10+ billion a day. The IRS thing, averaged over a year, cost $186k a day. Again, its waste, but its just a diversion from the real fiscal issues facing the country and does next to nothing to make or break us.


edit: changed a mistakenly typed "year" for the word "day" as it should have been.

[***1776***]

pretty much have been on nakedarab's side, weeks ago. Surprised this is still being talked about.

Really? Your ok with the government IRS-Treasury targeting and going after citizens it has political disagreements with? That doesn't bother you at all? - Are we that polarized now we are just numb to this type bullshit


Ovid9 -- I don't care that much about the IRs video that just came out (them line dancing, partying, etc) I am not going to lose sleep over that and their $$ bonuses they received, I dont like to see it but im not losing sleep over it either. We bleed $$$ out our ass in the government with all the waste and abuse, (I agree with you, especially $$ overseas, military shit, etc) but im sticking to the topic at hand

Im sticking to the issue that the IRS-Treasury went after groups and individuals that they had political disagreements with. We should knw who orderd it, how far it went up the foodchain and what exactly transpired. Some on the left will get upset and think its a witch hunt, and YESS the reps will try to score some political points for sure, but this topic irritates the shit out of me. Thankfully Obama himself said we need to get to the bottom of this

[ovid9]

@1776, you keep ignoring the fact that many of these organizations popped up so fast it was highly suspicious they could have been doing any social good, which is necessary for the type of non-profit they were going for.

Of course they were going to be targeted and you can believe it was for political reasons all you want. I'm far more inclined to believe, like CompOp said, is that somebody at a medium-high level of management initially said "ok, put all the ones with Tea Party or Patriot" in this pile because we're getting swamped here with these new ones and we need to check them out.

Then, someone higher heard this happened, freaked, told them to stop sorting them that way, but it was easier for the desk jockeys to ya know, do their job, sorting it in a fashion like that and it continued.

Extra scrutiny? Sure, but again, as thenakedarab points out, mostly likely DESERVED scrutiny because of the way these groups popped up out of nowhere wanting tax exempt status because of their "social good" when they hadn't been around long enough to do any social good.

If they had been targeting your regular run of the mill non-profits, no biggy, I would TOTALLY understand the anger and outrage, this was a specific type that was singled out for scrutiny because of an increased likelihood of fraudulent applications.

You don't see it that way at all, that's fine, but I think you're as equally "blinded" by your political views as you assume we are.

[***1776***]

Ovid are you saying they were NOT targeted? They already have admitted it was innapropriate and wrong


Even the new IRS leader came out today (just today) and said something like the trust of the IRS needs to come back to the public and has been breached/broken (I am paraphrasing) ---- I wouldn't have a problem if ALL political groups get scrutinized, but when its something like 125 to 5 (whatever the exact number was) something WRONG, they didn't target left leaning 501, they went for right leaning 1's only

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-575 ... than-2012/

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/irs-apol ... ive-groups

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/how ... story.html


BTW im for closing all tax loopholes -- 501, tax deductable, churches, etc, let everyone pay taxes damnit!

[ovid9]

Ovid are you saying they were NOT targeted? They already have admitted it was innapropriate and wrong


Even the new IRS leader came out today (just today) and said something like the trust of the IRS needs to come back to the public and has been breached/broken (I am paraphrasing) ---- I wouldn't have a problem if ALL political groups get scrutinized, but when its something like 125 to 5 (whatever the exact number was) something WRONG, they didn't target left leaning 501, they went for right leaning 1's only

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-575 ... than-2012/

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/irs-apol ... ive-groups

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/how ... story.html


BTW im for closing all tax loopholes -- 501, tax deductable, churches, etc, let everyone pay taxes damnit!

No, I think they were. And I think it was done correctly. They admitted it was wrong because they are scrambling to save jobs and save face. THIS part is the playing politics.

There's a reason more right leaning ones were targeted, there were far more (as in numerous, not $$$) right leaning groups funneling money all over. The whole thing is fucked though. The entire "campaign" system is so fucked.

Yeah, I'm not for doing away with all tax free orgs, but you damn well better be 100% apolitical to be one.