Sam Harris vs. Jordan Peterson

[Ostinato Rubato]

I don't have much to say except that this is absolutely phenomenal. I honestly feel lucky that we currently live in a time where the general public is actually ready to consume dialogue on this level.

For those who love philosophy or enjoy a high level debate about the value of religion (among other things), this one's for you.

[video]https://youtu.be/jey_CzIOfYE[/video]

[video]https://youtu.be/xRJ91lVQyRA[/video][/quote]

[IndyWS6]

Don't know either one, but curious. Marked for when I have time...

[K-Bizzle]

I watched both last week.
Really proud of them for finally figuring out how to talk to one another, this sets an example in and of itself.
I particularly liked the steel manning requirement on the start of night 2.
Bravo to Bret for moderating as well.

FWIW I definitely didn’t like the “vs” premise as presented by Pangburn (I’m skeptical of them in general) but overall I felt these were the conversations we were hoping for and expecting from the beginning with these two.
I’m with you mike I’m just happy that this is happening. This is better than anything that’s been happening with the public discussion of these topics in our lifetime.

[Marc G]

have this marked to watch over the weekend when I have some time...

[newholland]

i watched about 50 minutes of it. i enjoyed the lot of what i saw. i can't say i fully agree with either of them- but its cool watching them debate their points.

i still just don't like petersons whole logic that texts/stories somehow set the paradigm for human knowledge/experience-- and definitely resonate a lot more with the harris understanding of an intuitive sense of reality beyond texts. i just feel like peterson is perpetually driving a square peg into a round hole, and railing against a world he wants a prewritten prescription for. guess i'm just a postmodernist in a great many ways, and sure was educated to be. but that's neither here nor there.

one thing that seems SO weird to me though, discussion is awesome, and this is basically what SHOULD happen in college and did when i went. but making it into cheering and spectator sport rings mighty weird to me.

in ways, i'd rather see logic sports than people beat the piss out of each other. but cheering for points made is a little too jerry springer for me. it's high brow jerry springer, but it's still weird. i'm all for the bringing up of the intellectual bar, but i'm still figuring out if i think this reeks a little too much of politics over philosophy-- cause there ain't spectator philosophy.

[K-Bizzle]

NH i hear you on Peterson’s point.
I actually like the resolution that Bret adds at the end to Peterson’s side as he presents it to Sam. Watch to the end and let me know what you think.

[newholland]

ill have a peep later biz- i got into it before work and ran outa time- but will revisit!

[K-Bizzle]

I hear ya, for what it’s worth I’m much more in line with Sam than Jordan. It’s actually nice to hear Bret’s tweak on it being a biologist and all. It’s the best case I’ve heard for that side of the argument.

Also for the most part there are small points of cheering and what not but I don’t see it in the same light. If you hear something articulated well that you agree with would you just expect everyone to sit quietly? I don’t see it as a match, hence my distaste for the whole “vs” presentation, I see it more as honest real time emotional reaction by those whom are happy to hear points they resonate with articulated.

[Ostinato Rubato]

I watched both last week.
Really proud of them for finally figuring out how to talk to one another, this sets an example in and of itself.
I particularly liked the steel manning requirement on the start of night 2.
Bravo to Bret for moderating as well.

FWIW I definitely didn’t like the “vs” premise as presented by Pangburn (I’m skeptical of them in general) but overall I felt these were the conversations we were hoping for and expecting from the beginning with these two.
I’m with you mike I’m just happy that this is happening. This is better than anything that’s been happening with the public discussion of these topics in our lifetime.

I didn’t like the vs. thing either but I used it here for the same baity reason Pangburn did. Hoping it will get more people to peep it.

Agree on all counts. Mad respect to them for how this turned out.

[Ostinato Rubato]

I hear ya, for what it’s worth I’m much more in line with Sam than Jordan. It’s actually nice to hear Bret’s tweak on it being a biologist and all. It’s the best case I’ve heard for that side of the argument.

Also for the most part there are small points of cheering and what not but I don’t see it in the same light. If you hear something articulated well that you agree with would you just expect everyone to sit quietly? I don’t see it as a match, hence my distaste for the whole “vs” presentation, I see it more as honest real time emotional reaction by those whom are happy to hear points they resonate with articulated.

There was probably a little bit of rooting for your philosophical team happening in there every now and then, but all in the spirit of high level discussion like you’re saying. If I was in that crowd you would have heard me reacting like that to statements from both.

It was some good shit.

[Marc G]

oh well.... looks like the videos were taken down.... that's lame

[Ostinato Rubato]

Damn. I'm sure it'll pop up again in my youtube and social media feeds when the official release hits. I'll post again. Definitely worth the listen.

[Telephant]

Pangburn is an asshole and is making people pay his Patreon in order to view the video. I haven't watched them yet, but thankfully I found some unlisted links for us! Mike you may want to update the OP with the below links.

[video]https://youtu.be/jey_CzIOfYE[/video]

[video]https://youtu.be/xRJ91lVQyRA[/video]

[Ostinato Rubato]

Please tell me you found these links on the... intellectual dark web

[Telephant]

:thu:

Please tell me you found these links on the... intellectual dark web

Hah! I actually found them through Twitter. Interestingly, I just noticed those are the official Pangburn links, dude just has them unlisted so you can't find them through search. No doubt these are the links you would receive once paying for it on Patreon.

I'm digging into this shit tonight. TBH I really just want to stop working and watch this shit now.

[Ostinato Rubato]

:thu:

Please tell me you found these links on the... intellectual dark web

Hah! I actually found them through Twitter. Interestingly, I just noticed those are the official Pangburn links, dude just has them unlisted so you can't find them through search. No doubt these are the links you would receive once paying for it on Patreon.

I'm digging into this shit tonight. TBH I really just want to stop working and watch this shit now.

It goes a lot better than I could have imagined. You'll enjoy for sure.

[K-Bizzle]

I really appreciated Jordan taking notes.
This is not a dig at Jordan but he’s not quite as fast as Sam in fleshing out his points in real tome so him taking the initiative to have notes I think was really helpful to everyone.

[Ostinato Rubato]

I felt like Peterson was extremely prepared and aware of his own tendencies and worked to limit them. I thought he was actually more ready to deal with Sam than Sam was ready to deal with him. Peterson definitely really did homework and extra credit critical thinking assignments on steel manning Harris' views.

But I'm also an unabashed Peterson fanboi. I come from the same "Was once an atheist and am now a faux mystic with a loose definition of God" camp. Douche level 5000

[Kardula]

listened to a little of it. To add to what I said in the idw thread, I can't emphasize enough that while I don't agree with everything they say, the fact that they are maintain a civil and good faith discourse speaks volumes to what they are trying to accomplish and I can appreciate their willingness to engage with one another.

[K-Bizzle]

I felt like Peterson was extremely prepared and aware of his own tendencies and worked to limit them. I thought he was actually more ready to deal with Sam than Sam was ready to deal with him. Peterson definitely really did homework and extra credit critical thinking assignments on steel manning Harris' views.

But I'm also an unabashed Peterson fanboi. I come from the same "Was once an atheist and am now a faux mystic with a loose definition of God" camp. Douche level 5000

As a Harris fanboy I found it the other way around.
Jordan did work to be more prepared because in the past he assumed much about Sam's positions and actually took the time to read his work and get a good understanding. Which is good and I think helped avoid a great deal of unnecessary confusion.
Sam is more prepared to deal with Jordan (without additional homework) because to be honest this kind of thing is old hat to him. He's been stating the case for objective reason and fact over the subjective reality of religion for almost 20 years at this point. Just because Jordan presents it in a different way doesn't mean the same holes aren't there to be poked.
That Elton Johns glass thing while simple and meant to be a zinger was definitely a nail on head moment.

[redeyes]

Whats the term for I don't give a shit if god exists or not. Agnostic? Maybe.

[Ostinato Rubato]

Whats the term for I don't give a shit if god exists or not. Agnostic? Maybe.

Yeah more or less.

The issue they’re trying to hash out is where we’ll derive our moral and value structure as a society and more broadly for all humanity. That’s really the crux of this discussion. Two guys with different paths towards assisting people in figuring out how to value and judge things morally.

[redeyes]

Whats the term for I don't give a shit if god exists or not. Agnostic? Maybe.

Yeah more or less.

The issue they’re trying to hash out is where we’ll derive our moral and value structure as a society and more broadly for all humanity. That’s really the crux of this discussion. Two guys with different paths towards assisting people in figuring out how to value and judge things morally.

I just don't find them very impressive. This kind of stuff was pretty common place in the past. I suppose young people are more lost than other generations thanks to the Internet.

[Ostinato Rubato]

Whats the term for I don't give a shit if god exists or not. Agnostic? Maybe.

Yeah more or less.

The issue they’re trying to hash out is where we’ll derive our moral and value structure as a society and more broadly for all humanity. That’s really the crux of this discussion. Two guys with different paths towards assisting people in figuring out how to value and judge things morally.

I just don't find them very impressive. This kind of stuff was pretty common place in the past. I suppose young people are more lost than other generations thanks to the Internet.

True, but people haven’t really done this in front of millions of viewers. That’s the part for me that’s cool.

[K-Bizzle]

Whats the term for I don't give a shit if god exists or not. Agnostic? Maybe.

Yeah more or less.

The issue they’re trying to hash out is where we’ll derive our moral and value structure as a society and more broadly for all humanity. That’s really the crux of this discussion. Two guys with different paths towards assisting people in figuring out how to value and judge things morally.

I just don't find them very impressive. This kind of stuff was pretty common place in the past. I suppose young people are more lost than other generations thanks to the Internet.

Can you give examples?