Drum Programming - I need to learn it ONCE AND FOR ALL

[GuitarBilly]

Seriously, it's the only thing holding back my new project. I already have a couple of songs, lyrics etc I just need to create drum beats to start recording the tracks.

I have Reaper and SSD4. I also have Sonar but I can't get SSD to work with it for some reason.

But I am willing to buy a different software, hardware whatever is needed. I just need to get this done and over it.

What's the easiest way to create some drum beats and fills etc.. I hear a lot of demos hear with decent drums, so please HALP!!!!!

[BlackWolf]

I tab the drums in guitar pro and then export it to MIDI.

After that it's just tweaking a few things here and there to make it more "human".

[fretless]

how is SSD in Reaper ? I use SSD4 in cubase , through toontracks ezplayer pro . it's a host and lets you use sounds from one program in another for example I use ezdrummer because they have hundreds of midi loop packs , songwriter packs , intro verse chorus etc etc . SSD is limited with the loops but I like SSSD's zep kit and other sounds so I host in ezplayer pro , use ezdrummers libraries and SSD4's sounds . With the vast libraries available I can usually get a very good starting point then I'll double click into piano roll and edit the track . Move or delete / add a kick , add cymbals and so on . This saves me from having to start from scratch and hundreds of hours of mind numbing crap .

[Meelocheck]

EZ Drummer, you need it. I suck at making music in general but that program is easy to use and makes me sound like I know what I am doing. It isn't too expensive and add-ons can be, uhm, attained. I also use reaper and it is easy as click and drag. You can use pre-programmed beats, find something close to what you want, then go in and alter to fit exactly what it is you are trying to do.

EDIT: ^ All that stuff he said...

[EndTime]

I could tell you, but it really wouldn't help.. lol..

But honestly it does come from a number of things. Understanding things like different velocities so that you are sampling different sounds which create a more realistic feel. Since, even the greatest drummers can't hit each drum exact every time.

Having an understanding if playing drums is probably the biggest thing to know, and of course, the biggest obstacle for most. I can actually claim to be a drummer so writing drum patterns and realistically fills and feel comes with that knowledge.

So, for starters it is surely easiest to get a program like ez drummer or any premade beats and use those, not only for your music, but also to learn from how those patterns look within the drum editor or piano roll, if that's how you end up programming..

Which is also a huge thing. The DAW you use and its tools(or lack of) for creating beats. I find using the piano roll to really stunt my workflow. I still use an old version if Cubase SX2, but cubase has a drum editor that is a breeze to work in. So, creating beats is streamlined and easy to do.. Even for myself, the actual act of creating midi beats isn't that fun, so ifi ts just drudgery because the piano roll sucks, then it really sucks the creativity out of it.. So, if you aren't committed to a certain DAW, i would search around for a DAW that has productive drum editor like cubase..

[EndTime]

how is SSD in Reaper ? I use SSD4 in cubase , through toontracks ezplayer pro . it's a host and lets you use sounds from one program in another for example I use ezdrummer because they have hundreds of midi loop packs , songwriter packs , intro verse chorus etc etc . SSD is limited with the loops but I like SSSD's zep kit and other sounds so I host in ezplayer pro , use ezdrummers libraries and SSD4's sounds . With the vast libraries available I can usually get a very good starting point then I'll double click into piano roll and edit the track . Move or delete / add a kick , add cymbals and so on . This saves me from having to start from scratch and hundreds of hours of mind numbing crap .

Why use piano roll when cubase has the drum editor?

[fretless]

how is SSD in Reaper ? I use SSD4 in cubase , through toontracks ezplayer pro . it's a host and lets you use sounds from one program in another for example I use ezdrummer because they have hundreds of midi loop packs , songwriter packs , intro verse chorus etc etc . SSD is limited with the loops but I like SSSD's zep kit and other sounds so I host in ezplayer pro , use ezdrummers libraries and SSD4's sounds . With the vast libraries available I can usually get a very good starting point then I'll double click into piano roll and edit the track . Move or delete / add a kick , add cymbals and so on . This saves me from having to start from scratch and hundreds of hours of mind numbing crap .

Why use piano roll when cubase has the drum editor?

piano roll is super easy & quick for me . there is a ton of stuff in C7.5 that I have not discovered and may never will

[EndTime]

how is SSD in Reaper ? I use SSD4 in cubase , through toontracks ezplayer pro . it's a host and lets you use sounds from one program in another for example I use ezdrummer because they have hundreds of midi loop packs , songwriter packs , intro verse chorus etc etc . SSD is limited with the loops but I like SSSD's zep kit and other sounds so I host in ezplayer pro , use ezdrummers libraries and SSD4's sounds . With the vast libraries available I can usually get a very good starting point then I'll double click into piano roll and edit the track . Move or delete / add a kick , add cymbals and so on . This saves me from having to start from scratch and hundreds of hours of mind numbing crap .

Why use piano roll when cubase has the drum editor?

piano roll is super easy & quick for me . there is a ton of stuff in C7.5 that I have not discovered and may never will

Drum editor is easier.. lol..

Seriously, i know its easy to get used to something and jyst stick with it, but i really think youd try the drum editor, cause its just a faster, easier version of a piano roll. Far more streamlined..

Just single click to highlight the midi event. Go up top and click "midi" and then from the dropdown ,click drum editor.. there is no learning curve, it'll be an easy switch and you'll wonder why you fucked around in piano roll for so long... ;-)

[fretless]

how is SSD in Reaper ? I use SSD4 in cubase , through toontracks ezplayer pro . it's a host and lets you use sounds from one program in another for example I use ezdrummer because they have hundreds of midi loop packs , songwriter packs , intro verse chorus etc etc . SSD is limited with the loops but I like SSSD's zep kit and other sounds so I host in ezplayer pro , use ezdrummers libraries and SSD4's sounds . With the vast libraries available I can usually get a very good starting point then I'll double click into piano roll and edit the track . Move or delete / add a kick , add cymbals and so on . This saves me from having to start from scratch and hundreds of hours of mind numbing crap .

Why use piano roll when cubase has the drum editor?

piano roll is super easy & quick for me . there is a ton of stuff in C7.5 that I have not discovered and may never will

Drum editor is easier.. lol..

Seriously, i know its easy to get used to something and jyst stick with it, but i really think youd try the drum editor, cause its just a faster, easier version of a piano roll. Far more streamlined..

Just single click to highlight the midi event. Go up top and click "midi" and then from the dropdown ,click drum editor.. there is no learning curve, it'll be an easy switch and you'll wonder why you fucked around in piano roll for so long... ;-)

I'll give it a whirl , I just double click the section and boom I'm in piano roll , I can be in and out of there in seconds .

[EndTime]

I know it's easy for you, and like You i used piano initially, but this is so much easier i would never go back to piano roll.. my 2 cents..

[nakedzen]

I tab the drums in guitar pro and then export it to MIDI.

After that it's just tweaking a few things here and there to make it more "human".

Reaper has also the automated humanize feature in the piano roll. Double click on the midi track, that'll open the piano roll, then hit ctrl+a and then hit H.

[GuitarBilly]

EZ Drummer, you need it. I suck at making music in general but that program is easy to use and makes me sound like I know what I am doing. It isn't too expensive and add-ons can be, uhm, attained. I also use reaper and it is easy as click and drag. You can use pre-programmed beats, find something close to what you want, then go in and alter to fit exactly what it is you are trying to do.

EDIT: ^ All that stuff he said...

It sounds like this is what I need, I will watch some videos/demos on EZ-Drummer tonight and probably buy it.

I like Reaper but I am so used to Sonar I want to stick with it. I need to see how is the integration between Reaper and Sonar.

I could tell you, but it really wouldn't help.. lol..

But honestly it does come from a number of things. Understanding things like different velocities so that you are sampling different sounds which create a more realistic feel. Since, even the greatest drummers can't hit each drum exact every time.

Having an understanding if playing drums is probably the biggest thing to know, and of course, the biggest obstacle for most. I can actually claim to be a drummer so writing drum patterns and realistically fills and feel comes with that knowledge.

So, for starters it is surely easiest to get a program like ez drummer or any premade beats and use those, not only for your music, but also to learn from how those patterns look within the drum editor or piano roll, if that's how you end up programming..

Which is also a huge thing. The DAW you use and its tools(or lack of) for creating beats. I find using the piano roll to really stunt my workflow. I still use an old version if Cubase SX2, but cubase has a drum editor that is a breeze to work in. So, creating beats is streamlined and easy to do.. Even for myself, the actual act of creating midi beats isn't that fun, so ifi ts just drudgery because the piano roll sucks, then it really sucks the creativity out of it.. So, if you aren't committed to a certain DAW, i would search around for a DAW that has productive drum editor like cubase..

You're right. It didn't help

I tab the drums in guitar pro and then export it to MIDI.

After that it's just tweaking a few things here and there to make it more "human".

Drum tabs..hmm I need to see how that works....

[Krunchmeister]

I need to gt more savy with this as well. I want to start doing more progressive compositions. When the drums are too predictable then it influences the rest of the material.

[JerEvil]

Damn it … I am making a vid on this TODAY!!!

It is so damn easy. I was TERRIFIED of it for the longest time, until I just made myself figure it out for one of my Cherry 2000 songs (Cross Out Needy - Shameless plug)

All songs here (except Same Old) I programmed from scratch. They get progressively better and more realistic IMHO.
http://www.reverbnation.com/cherry2k

Also these are some of my more recent ones:
http://www.reverbnation.com/ascendingavaddon

All using Steven Slate for sounds. Some started with free loops from Groove Monkee that I use just for more realistic velocity fluctuation but I never use them "as is"

[EndTime]

EZ Drummer, you need it. I suck at making music in general but that program is easy to use and makes me sound like I know what I am doing. It isn't too expensive and add-ons can be, uhm, attained. I also use reaper and it is easy as click and drag. You can use pre-programmed beats, find something close to what you want, then go in and alter to fit exactly what it is you are trying to do.

EDIT: ^ All that stuff he said...

It sounds like this is what I need, I will watch some videos/demos on EZ-Drummer tonight and probably buy it.

I like Reaper but I am so used to Sonar I want to stick with it. I need to see how is the integration between Reaper and Sonar.

I could tell you, but it really wouldn't help.. lol..

But honestly it does come from a number of things. Understanding things like different velocities so that you are sampling different sounds which create a more realistic feel. Since, even the greatest drummers can't hit each drum exact every time.

Having an understanding if playing drums is probably the biggest thing to know, and of course, the biggest obstacle for most. I can actually claim to be a drummer so writing drum patterns and realistically fills and feel comes with that knowledge.

So, for starters it is surely easiest to get a program like ez drummer or any premade beats and use those, not only for your music, but also to learn from how those patterns look within the drum editor or piano roll, if that's how you end up programming..

Which is also a huge thing. The DAW you use and its tools(or lack of) for creating beats. I find using the piano roll to really stunt my workflow. I still use an old version if Cubase SX2, but cubase has a drum editor that is a breeze to work in. So, creating beats is streamlined and easy to do.. Even for myself, the actual act of creating midi beats isn't that fun, so ifi ts just drudgery because the piano roll sucks, then it really sucks the creativity out of it.. So, if you aren't committed to a certain DAW, i would search around for a DAW that has productive drum editor like cubase..

You're right. It didn't help

I tab the drums in guitar pro and then export it to MIDI.

After that it's just tweaking a few things here and there to make it more "human".

Drum tabs..hmm I need to see how that works....

Well, it should help a little! Haha.. cause i did say start with premade beats or ez drummer.. but unfortunately, there is no secret to programming from scratch. You either understand how drum beats look when tabbed out in midi or don't... but all daw software has grids and tempo tracks, so just playimg around putting drum hits on certain accents of a measure is a way to start developing ideas on how to make beats.. But for sure, just looking at the midi files of pre-programmed beats will also show you how more intricate patterns look. And should show the different velocity hits of succesive drum hits, IE during snare and tom rolls..

[GuitarBilly]

Well I can read and write standard musical notation really well.. I wonder if I can just write the music on Sibelius and export it to MIDI...

[BlackWolf]

I tab the drums in guitar pro and then export it to MIDI.

After that it's just tweaking a few things here and there to make it more "human".

Reaper has also the automated humanize feature in the piano roll. Double click on the midi track, that'll open the piano roll, then hit ctrl+a and then hit H.

Wait...what?

This would make my life sooo much easier! Does it work well with windows 8? And superior drummer? And, like, amplitube and other MIDI shit?

[BlackWolf]

EZ Drummer, you need it. I suck at making music in general but that program is easy to use and makes me sound like I know what I am doing. It isn't too expensive and add-ons can be, uhm, attained. I also use reaper and it is easy as click and drag. You can use pre-programmed beats, find something close to what you want, then go in and alter to fit exactly what it is you are trying to do.

EDIT: ^ All that stuff he said...

It sounds like this is what I need, I will watch some videos/demos on EZ-Drummer tonight and probably buy it.

I like Reaper but I am so used to Sonar I want to stick with it. I need to see how is the integration between Reaper and Sonar.

I could tell you, but it really wouldn't help.. lol..

But honestly it does come from a number of things. Understanding things like different velocities so that you are sampling different sounds which create a more realistic feel. Since, even the greatest drummers can't hit each drum exact every time.

Having an understanding if playing drums is probably the biggest thing to know, and of course, the biggest obstacle for most. I can actually claim to be a drummer so writing drum patterns and realistically fills and feel comes with that knowledge.

So, for starters it is surely easiest to get a program like ez drummer or any premade beats and use those, not only for your music, but also to learn from how those patterns look within the drum editor or piano roll, if that's how you end up programming..

Which is also a huge thing. The DAW you use and its tools(or lack of) for creating beats. I find using the piano roll to really stunt my workflow. I still use an old version if Cubase SX2, but cubase has a drum editor that is a breeze to work in. So, creating beats is streamlined and easy to do.. Even for myself, the actual act of creating midi beats isn't that fun, so ifi ts just drudgery because the piano roll sucks, then it really sucks the creativity out of it.. So, if you aren't committed to a certain DAW, i would search around for a DAW that has productive drum editor like cubase..

You're right. It didn't help

I tab the drums in guitar pro and then export it to MIDI.

After that it's just tweaking a few things here and there to make it more "human".

Drum tabs..hmm I need to see how that works....

You can do it click by click in the piano roll. After you get your main drum beats it's all copy and paste.

[nakedzen]

I tab the drums in guitar pro and then export it to MIDI.

After that it's just tweaking a few things here and there to make it more "human".

Reaper has also the automated humanize feature in the piano roll. Double click on the midi track, that'll open the piano roll, then hit ctrl+a and then hit H.

Wait...what?

This would make my life sooo much easier! Does it work well with windows 8? And superior drummer? And, like, amplitube and other MIDI shit?

I've never used Reaper with W8 so no idea. But the piano roll is completely separate from your vsti's so it doesn't matter what you use as the instrument to play the midi.

[BlackWolf]

I tab the drums in guitar pro and then export it to MIDI.

After that it's just tweaking a few things here and there to make it more "human".

Reaper has also the automated humanize feature in the piano roll. Double click on the midi track, that'll open the piano roll, then hit ctrl+a and then hit H.

Wait...what?

This would make my life sooo much easier! Does it work well with windows 8? And superior drummer? And, like, amplitube and other MIDI shit?

I've never used Reaper with W8 so no idea. But the piano roll is completely separate from your vsti's so it doesn't matter what you use as the instrument to play the midi.

Gonna give it a try.

Been using a sonar copy a friend got me and, besides a lot's of audio drops and being quite hard to tweak, i managed to get along pretty well with it.

[Nateispro]

if you're looking at EZ-drummer i do know they're releasing a new version EZ-drummer II that is in between the old one and SD 2.0. It looks like it'd be a little more tweakable to me

[DNW]

I suspect with the new EZD2 there's more of the songwriting tools type thing, or they've improved that side of things. The video I saw was pretty vague about things though (as I guess any rather brief release video would tend to be).

That said, is this a solo recording project type thing where the drums you're putting down are what are going to be on the final recording? Or do you just want this as a songwriting tool get whack some shit down and later deal with a drummer?

[GuitarBilly]

Yeah it's a solo project and these drums are going tobe in the final recordings. That said, it's nothing too complex... just some basic rock beats, slow doom beats etc... no complex double bass runs or odd tempos or anything like that. I just want it to sound as real as possible....but the drum parts themselves should be really simple

[DNW]

Well the demo/final thing for me is more about the quality and depth of the sampling, rather than the complexity of what's going to be triggering those samples. Whether it's simple rock beats or crazy technical and intricate stuff, lower quality drum samples tend to stand out. More so with the more technical stuff, but you can still here it in simple beats too. Dodgy cymbals can can really stand out, but the drums also, especially when you're doing fills 'n' shit. Part of it is also the sequencing though. I dunno what the new EZD is going to sound like, but the original one for me always sounded a bit artificial to me.

There are I guess a few ways you could go about putting the drum tracks together. The easiest ways I guess would be just piecing bits together from MIDI sample packs, or just playing the parts on an e-kit if you're competent enough on drums. The latter could of course be rather expensive if you don't already have an e-kit, so we'll just ignore that. I dunno what the go is with SSD stuff, but I know Toontrack have an arseload of MIDI packs available, full of all kinds of different beats and fills in various styles. I'm guessing SSD has similar stuff available, if only so Toontrack don't have that over them. That said, I've never really been into that way of doing things. I generally have a pretty good idea of what I want the drums to do, and it's quicker for me to just whack it all down with the mouse rather than search through a huge library of sequences to try find something that's close to what I want, which I then have to finish off with editing anyway. That said, the TT stuff I know are sequences recorded from an e-kit, so there's already that "real drummer" aspect in there, without having to dick about with all the trickery of programming in some "human error" or whatever. And if you just want fairly straight forward rock beats 'n' shit, I'm sure TT's stuff or whoever else that does 'em could easily cover it.

Another way would be whackin' the notes in over a few passes using pads or a MIDI keyboard (or pads on a MIDI keyboard). Some people like doing this... I tried it years ago and didn't like it personally. I'd be doing passes over and over, and then I'd end up quantizing it anyway coz I can't drum on a fuckin' keyboard, and then go use the mouse to program in the "real drummer" aspect. So in the end it took me way longer to stuff and annoyed the fuck out of me in the process. But I've been sequencing music in MIDI for 15 years or something. If I'd started out hitting notes on a keyboard, by now I'd probably think clicking them in one note at a time was a retarded way of doing it.

So yeah, I just click stuff in directly with the mouse in the Cubase drum editor. Do Soanar or Reaper have drum editor screens? It makes it a lot easier than working on a piano roll or standard notation. Again, talking about Toontrack coz that's what I know, but a reasonable sized kit contains a shitload of different notes. The hats might have 3-5 levels of openness, maybe a couple for closed (one tighter than that other), the pedal, maybe stick tip, etc. The snare might have a normal hit, a sidestick, a rimshot, a muted snare, etc. Sure you can just do away with a lot of this stuff, but if you want to put together a really good sounding track for a final recording, I imagine you'd want the kit available to you in as much detail as you could get. So yeah, trying to keep track of all that shit on a piano roll or in standard notation? Bit of a bitch. If you have a drum map screen, or something like it where you can name all the notes rather than having to remember what a C#3 is or whatever, that definitely helps. Even if most of what you're doing is just pasting in pre-made beats, it'll still help to have a screen that actually makes sense to look at.

I also don't particularly like "auto-humanise" type functions. Complete mistakes aside, the variations in timing for a real drummer (compared to dead-on snapped to grid) aren't necessarily just completely random fluctuations. Aside from deliberately playing behind the beat or whatever, the variations are related to how a drummer moves. What it means though is that I end up shifting every single note around and adjusting its velocity individually, which takes an absolute fuckload of time. I quite enjoy programming drums, but that shit drives even me batshit crazy.

So yeah, if copying in pre-made beats from a MIDI pack covers what you want, do that.

[GuitarBilly]

Thanks guys. I've tried some of the suggestions here last night and I think I've made a lot of progress. I tried different methods and I think the most intuitive for me at this point is to start with a stock MIDI loop and then tweak it to fit the song. I've found that to be easier than making a drum beat from scratch at this point. But maybe once I get more familiar with it I will try to make custom beats.

Last night I was finally able to finish the rhythm tracks of the first song for this new project, so thanks for all the advice, it helped a lot!!!