Coronavirus - WTH is going on?

[clipless bumper]

It's all about the lockdown itself now - this will become more obvious as the summer progresses. GA already had positive results while opening up.

[nightflameauto]

So a barely correlative mystery syndrome emerges with positive prognosis and we're led to believe we need to protect the children from it by remaining the lockdown. Ok. I guess that's what we're doing here.

Well, we are in the country that's spent most of the last forty years screaming, "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"

The truth is children are carriers. The school lockdowns are honestly about not having the little transfer agents running the disease from house to house among the adults, like they do with the common cold, the flu, or any other yearly sickness. Send the kids to school because they most likely won't be affected, but you'll see adults getting bit for it even in houses where the kids never display symptoms.

[IndyWS6]

It's all about the lockdown itself now - this will become more obvious as the summer progresses. GA already had positive results while opening up.

It depends on which data sources you trust, right? It's also been less than a week since they "reopened". If previous data was accurate, it takes two weeks for infections to make their mark, and , at least, several days past that for statistics to catch up, so we really don't know, do we? I've seen both good and bad results and with the delay in statistical gathering, I prefer to be cautious. Believe what you believe and do as you see fit. I'm in no hurry to rush out and let zombie mouth-breathers ruin my future...

[IndyWS6]

So a barely correlative mystery syndrome emerges with positive prognosis and we're led to believe we need to protect the children from it by remaining the lockdown. Ok. I guess that's what we're doing here.

Well, we are in the country that's spent most of the last forty years screaming, "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"

The truth is children are carriers. The school lockdowns are honestly about not having the little transfer agents running the disease from house to house among the adults, like they do with the common cold, the flu, or any other yearly sickness. Send the kids to school because they most likely won't be affected, but you'll see adults getting bit for it even in houses where the kids never display symptoms.

Exactly... A virus that affects children at a low rate but devastates their parents and grandparents is what this is looking like. Why are schools closed? Because, if they were open, every day, hundreds (if not thousands) of kids could become carriers of a deadly virus. This is not rocket science, people...

[thisguy]

So a barely correlative mystery syndrome emerges with positive prognosis and we're led to believe we need to protect the children from it by remaining the lockdown. Ok. I guess that's what we're doing here.

Well, we are in the country that's spent most of the last forty years screaming, "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"

The truth is children are carriers. The school lockdowns are honestly about not having the little transfer agents running the disease from house to house among the adults, like they do with the common cold, the flu, or any other yearly sickness. Send the kids to school because they most likely won't be affected, but you'll see adults getting bit for it even in houses where the kids never display symptoms.

Exactly... A virus that affects children at a low rate but devastates their parents and grandparents is what this is looking like. Why are schools closed? Because, if they were open, every day, hundreds (if not thousands) of kids could become carriers of a deadly virus. This is not rocket science, people...

Which is a good thing because, speaking of elementary school, this whole thing has exposed the fact that most adults lack an elementary school level understanding of science.

[IndyWS6]

So a barely correlative mystery syndrome emerges with positive prognosis and we're led to believe we need to protect the children from it by remaining the lockdown. Ok. I guess that's what we're doing here.

Well, we are in the country that's spent most of the last forty years screaming, "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"

The truth is children are carriers. The school lockdowns are honestly about not having the little transfer agents running the disease from house to house among the adults, like they do with the common cold, the flu, or any other yearly sickness. Send the kids to school because they most likely won't be affected, but you'll see adults getting bit for it even in houses where the kids never display symptoms.

Exactly... A virus that affects children at a low rate but devastates their parents and grandparents is what this is looking like. Why are schools closed? Because, if they were open, every day, hundreds (if not thousands) of kids could become carriers of a deadly virus. This is not rocket science, people...

Which is a good thing because, speaking of elementary school, this whole thing has exposed the fact that most adults lack an elementary school level understanding of science.

I'm not sure if it's a lack of education, but there is damn sure a high level of susceptibility to popular opinion over science (or common sense)...

[nightflameauto]

Which is a good thing because, speaking of elementary school, this whole thing has exposed the fact that most adults lack an elementary school level understanding of science.

I think there's two levels to this. Education in the US has been shit for a long time, but we've also seen a decline in naturally curious people that go out seeking knowledge rather than just absorbing whatever bullshit is being pumped into their earholes from their preferred media source.

Top that with the tendency to go full tribal with EVERY piece of information among the masses, and here we are. We're watching a country that, for the most part, is filled with people turning a pandemic that should be faced with science and reason, and fighting about it because science just doesn't matter. The number of times I've had an acquaintance lately tell me, "you can't trust scientists. You can't trust doctors. They all have their own special interests."

[thisguy]

Which is a good thing because, speaking of elementary school, this whole thing has exposed the fact that most adults lack an elementary school level understanding of science.

I think there's two levels to this. Education in the US has been shit for a long time, but we've also seen a decline in naturally curious people that go out seeking knowledge rather than just absorbing whatever bullshit is being pumped into their earholes from their preferred media source.

Top that with the tendency to go full tribal with EVERY piece of information among the masses, and here we are. We're watching a country that, for the most part, is filled with people turning a pandemic that should be faced with science and reason, and fighting about it because science just doesn't matter. The number of times I've had an acquaintance lately tell me, "you can't trust scientists. You can't trust doctors. They all have their own special interests."

Which brings us to the hemp pills thread. When I ask why there isn't scientific evidence for CBD oil curing cancer and everything else under the sun the response will be because the government and big pharma don't want us to know the truth so all the evidence is being suppressed.

[itchyfingers]

Which is a good thing because, speaking of elementary school, this whole thing has exposed the fact that most adults lack an elementary school level understanding of science.

I think there's two levels to this. Education in the US has been shit for a long time, but we've also seen a decline in naturally curious people that go out seeking knowledge rather than just absorbing whatever bullshit is being pumped into their earholes from their preferred media source.

Top that with the tendency to go full tribal with EVERY piece of information among the masses, and here we are. We're watching a country that, for the most part, is filled with people turning a pandemic that should be faced with science and reason, and fighting about it because science just doesn't matter. The number of times I've had an acquaintance lately tell me, "you can't trust scientists. You can't trust doctors. They all have their own special interests."

I think it goes even deeper than that. Long before COVID 19, there has been a wave of anti-intelligence propaganda repeatedly washing over this country. Anti-vaxxers, flat-earth society, climate-change-is-a-hoax, the list just keeps growing. People ignore subject matter experts because they can find one alternative (unproven) theory on Google and then call that "research". Add social media to the mix, and everyone is reposting things that they have zero basic understanding of - easing the spread of misinformation and bullshit. No wonder people are confused.

[Ostinato Rubato]

So a barely correlative mystery syndrome emerges with positive prognosis and we're led to believe we need to protect the children from it by remaining the lockdown. Ok. I guess that's what we're doing here.

Well, we are in the country that's spent most of the last forty years screaming, "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"

The truth is children are carriers. The school lockdowns are honestly about not having the little transfer agents running the disease from house to house among the adults, like they do with the common cold, the flu, or any other yearly sickness. Send the kids to school because they most likely won't be affected, but you'll see adults getting bit for it even in houses where the kids never display symptoms.

Exactly... A virus that affects children at a low rate but devastates their parents and grandparents is what this is looking like. Why are schools closed? Because, if they were open, every day, hundreds (if not thousands) of kids could become carriers of a deadly virus. This is not rocket science, people...

Find me a confirmed case of a child to adult transmission, please.

I know the difference between a child dying of the disease, and a child carrying the disease and transmitting it to others who it can potentially kill.

Again, there is little to no evidence that children are a vector. Find me a confirmed case.

[Ostinato Rubato]

https://dontforgetthebubbles.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/COVID-data-top-10.pdf <--- This is a report on 70+ worldwide studies. Like actual data.

[IndyWS6]

So a barely correlative mystery syndrome emerges with positive prognosis and we're led to believe we need to protect the children from it by remaining the lockdown. Ok. I guess that's what we're doing here.

Well, we are in the country that's spent most of the last forty years screaming, "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!"

The truth is children are carriers. The school lockdowns are honestly about not having the little transfer agents running the disease from house to house among the adults, like they do with the common cold, the flu, or any other yearly sickness. Send the kids to school because they most likely won't be affected, but you'll see adults getting bit for it even in houses where the kids never display symptoms.

Exactly... A virus that affects children at a low rate but devastates their parents and grandparents is what this is looking like. Why are schools closed? Because, if they were open, every day, hundreds (if not thousands) of kids could become carriers of a deadly virus. This is not rocket science, people...

Find me a confirmed case of a child to adult transmission, please.

I know the difference between a child dying of the disease, and a child carrying the disease and transmitting it to others who it can potentially kill.

Again, there is little to no evidence that children are a vector. Find me a confirmed case.

To be fair, I don't know that I can find a published source. But, does it make sense that a virus that has the confirmed ability to be transmitted between humans, wouldn't be transmitted from children to adults? Even if children are infected at a lower rate? The extension of that is that children in a high-density school would carry it home and be the carriers. Right? Am I missing something?

[GuitarBilly]

There is little to no transmission of SARS-CoV-2, or at least no current known confirmed case, from an infected child to an adult. Additionally, the mortality rate for children is practically zero.

https://dontforgetthebubbles.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/COVID-data-top-10.pdf

WHY THE FUCK ARE WE KEEPING THE SCHOOLS CLOSED?

From what I understand, the CDC never said that closing schools was an effective method to stop spread. The concerns were more regarding older staff and staff/children with underlying conditions being around each other.

The other concern is only half the students in the US use school transportation, the other half is transported by parents so keeping schools open would make it harder for communities to lockdown in general. Basically, when schools are open, more people (of all ages) are out..

As a whole, the idea of social distancing is to protect the weak and the elderly since most people will go through coronavirus just fine. In that sense, schools are not different than anywhere else.

Now whether you agree with that principle or not is a different story.

I can only imagine what you're going through right now with 5 children locked in. I'd be screaming for schools to reopen too

Mojo sent

[Ostinato Rubato]

There are several disease that behave differently in different categories of people for different reasons. It's all very complex. There are no known transmissions from children (10 and under) to adults. 1/3 of all deaths are the result of nursing home transmission.

You can get the kids back in school, and you can keep everyone over the age of 60 home and sending them financial support, while the rest of us work. You can give nursing homes resources to protect themselves and expand their measures to limit the spread. There is actually enough information now to adjust course responsibly.

Because what's the alternative? What are we waiting for? Therapeutic? Vaccine? Herd Immunity? None of those are acceptable place holders for policy. and we keep saying that we need to listen to the experts, which is absolutely true, but with a very important caveat. If they don't have an actual alternative to lock down, then the extent to which their expert opinion is useable is very fucking limited. There comes a point, like with all issues of public health and public policy, where you understand that people will have to accept a certain level of fixed risk and let them have agency over their lives and decisions.

But since literally every single issue in our lives in 2020 is politicized, the conversation becomes very immature and boxed into binaries like 1) You value life over money, 2) You value liberty over safety, or 3) You sound like you agree with one "side" vs. the "other" side.

I hate it all.

[nightflameauto]

But since literally every single issue in our lives in 2020 is politicized, the conversation becomes very immature and boxed into binaries like 1) You value life over money, 2) You value liberty over safety, or 3) You sound like you agree with one "side" vs. the "other" side.

I hate it all.

This is super frustrating. Political polarization has taken over to the point where rational conversation about any issue is near impossible. It's to the point where you can't so much as disagree about what kind of soup you prefer without somebody turning into a liberal/conservative shit-slinging contest.

So when a real issue comes along, like how to deal with a pandemic we clearly weren't prepared to face, the possibility of real debate without it devolving into "two sides" screaming obscenities at each other is pretty much negligible. As can be seen any time you turn on the news now no matter what source you prefer.

[GuitarBilly]

There are several disease that behave differently in different categories of people for different reasons. It's all very complex. There are no known transmissions from children (10 and under) to adults. 1/3 of all deaths are the result of nursing home transmission.

You can get the kids back in school, and you can keep everyone over the age of 60 home and sending them financial support, while the rest of us work. You can give nursing homes resources to protect themselves and expand their measures to limit the spread. There is actually enough information now to adjust course responsibly.

Because what's the alternative? What are we waiting for? Therapeutic? Vaccine? Herd Immunity? None of those are acceptable place holders for policy. and we keep saying that we need to listen to the experts, which is absolutely true, but with a very important caveat. If they don't have an actual alternative to lock down, then the extent to which their expert opinion is useable is very fucking limited. There comes a point, like with all issues of public health and public policy, where you understand that people will have to accept a certain level of fixed risk and let them have agency over their lives and decisions.

But since literally every single issue in our lives in 2020 is politicized, the conversation becomes very immature and boxed into binaries like 1) You value life over money, 2) You value liberty over safety, or 3) You sound like you agree with one "side" vs. the "other" side.

I hate it all.

yeah I mean, schools would be out in a few weeks anyway, so I don't know how beneficial it would be to open now just to close again in a few weeks. But then again, I don't have 5 children in my house.

But I really see no upside to risk transmission at this point ( again, there is a lot of adult to adult interaction in the course of a normal school day, children are not in school alone), this school year is gone no matter what

[clipless bumper]

And I bet (with absolutely no evidence to back it up) that NO students were held back this year.......

[Ostinato Rubato]

There are several disease that behave differently in different categories of people for different reasons. It's all very complex. There are no known transmissions from children (10 and under) to adults. 1/3 of all deaths are the result of nursing home transmission.

You can get the kids back in school, and you can keep everyone over the age of 60 home and sending them financial support, while the rest of us work. You can give nursing homes resources to protect themselves and expand their measures to limit the spread. There is actually enough information now to adjust course responsibly.

Because what's the alternative? What are we waiting for? Therapeutic? Vaccine? Herd Immunity? None of those are acceptable place holders for policy. and we keep saying that we need to listen to the experts, which is absolutely true, but with a very important caveat. If they don't have an actual alternative to lock down, then the extent to which their expert opinion is useable is very fucking limited. There comes a point, like with all issues of public health and public policy, where you understand that people will have to accept a certain level of fixed risk and let them have agency over their lives and decisions.

But since literally every single issue in our lives in 2020 is politicized, the conversation becomes very immature and boxed into binaries like 1) You value life over money, 2) You value liberty over safety, or 3) You sound like you agree with one "side" vs. the "other" side.

I hate it all.

yeah I mean, schools would be out in a few weeks anyway, so I don't know how beneficial it would be to open now just to close again in a few weeks. But then again, I don't have 5 children in my house.

But I really see no upside to risk transmission at this point ( again, there is a lot of adult to adult interaction in the course of a normal school day, children are not in school alone), this school year is gone no matter what

There's still childcare that people need during the summer. All of the summer camp and day camp facilities, YMCA's, Boys & Girls clubs, etc. will be closed. I'm having a hard time getting people back to work who have kids, and they want to come back.

At what point will we start seeing the upside to risking transmission? Again, what's the alternative? Until some unknown and unforeseeable achievement is reached which reduces the risk of transmission, we will be dealing with the exact same risk of transmission. It might be a permanent feature of human life forever going forward, like the common flu... and every other coronavirus we've had.

At what point do we acknowledge this and start making the same types of tough decisions that we make with every other public health problem? We each are at greater risk of killing someone by driving on streets and freeways than we are of killing someone by giving them a coronavirus.

The original stated purpose of lockdown was to flatten the curve and prevent the healthcare system from being overwhelmed, which we achieved. Will it come back, yes. So... what does that prove? That we can't contain it and locking down won't solve the problem.

Meanwhile we have hospitals laying off doctors because there's a lack of patients, we're on track for an absurd ventilator SURPLUS and 9 out of 10 people on ventilators die and it's not clear that they have saved any lives.

I think I'm gonna drop this topic and try to shake it all off and enjoy the rest of my Friday.

[clipless bumper]

you are starting to come around Mikey!!!

[Ostinato Rubato]

you are starting to come around Mikey!!!

I'm having a moment similar to this meme...

[GuitarBilly]

I don't know what that point would be man. I truly don't.

I'm in one of the most privileged positions out of everyone, since in one hand, I'm young and healthy so I doubt rona would affect me much.. and on the other hand, I work from home, I have no children and zero money issues. So it's very easy for me to stay either way...

So I wouldn't want to say No to those wanting to go back to work and I wouldn't want to say No to those trying to protect a loved one who's at risk either.

It's a tough situation and I am fine with admitting that I don't know the answer. And honestly, most people don't. They're going with their gut instinct, based on their personal circumstances, which is understandable. But I personally don't know what's the correct course of action here.


So at this point, I have to defer to health experts and follow their recommendations as closely as possible, I don't see what else we can do.

[clipless bumper]

you are starting to come around Mikey!!!

I'm having a moment similar to this meme...

[Schweezly]

There are several disease that behave differently in different categories of people for different reasons. It's all very complex. There are no known transmissions from children (10 and under) to adults. 1/3 of all deaths are the result of nursing home transmission.

You can get the kids back in school, and you can keep everyone over the age of 60 home and sending them financial support, while the rest of us work. You can give nursing homes resources to protect themselves and expand their measures to limit the spread. There is actually enough information now to adjust course responsibly.

Because what's the alternative? What are we waiting for? Therapeutic? Vaccine? Herd Immunity? None of those are acceptable place holders for policy. and we keep saying that we need to listen to the experts, which is absolutely true, but with a very important caveat. If they don't have an actual alternative to lock down, then the extent to which their expert opinion is useable is very fucking limited. There comes a point, like with all issues of public health and public policy, where you understand that people will have to accept a certain level of fixed risk and let them have agency over their lives and decisions.

But since literally every single issue in our lives in 2020 is politicized, the conversation becomes very immature and boxed into binaries like 1) You value life over money, 2) You value liberty over safety, or 3) You sound like you agree with one "side" vs. the "other" side.

I hate it all.

yeah I mean, schools would be out in a few weeks anyway, so I don't know how beneficial it would be to open now just to close again in a few weeks. But then again, I don't have 5 children in my house.

But I really see no upside to risk transmission at this point ( again, there is a lot of adult to adult interaction in the course of a normal school day, children are not in school alone), this school year is gone no matter what

There's still childcare that people need during the summer. All of the summer camp and day camp facilities, YMCA's, Boys & Girls clubs, etc. will be closed. I'm having a hard time getting people back to work who have kids, and they want to come back.

At what point will we start seeing the upside to risking transmission? Again, what's the alternative? Until some unknown and unforeseeable achievement is reached which reduces the risk of transmission, we will be dealing with the exact same risk of transmission. It might be a permanent feature of human life forever going forward, like the common flu... and every other coronavirus we've had.

At what point do we acknowledge this and start making the same types of tough decisions that we make with every other public health problem? We each are at greater risk of killing someone by driving on streets and freeways than we are of killing someone by giving them a coronavirus.

The original stated purpose of lockdown was to flatten the curve and prevent the healthcare system from being overwhelmed, which we achieved. Will it come back, yes. So... what does that prove? That we can't contain it and locking down won't solve the problem.

Meanwhile we have hospitals laying off doctors because there's a lack of patients, we're on track for an absurd ventilator SURPLUS and 9 out of 10 people on ventilators die and it's not clear that they have saved any lives.

I think I'm gonna drop this topic and try to shake it all off and enjoy the rest of my Friday.

While I’m on the “better safe than sorry” side of this, I feel the part I bolded above has been lost by a lot of people. The original stay at hone was to let hospitals catch up and be able to handle this.

In a lot of places it now feels like “we can’t get out of lockdown until no one will die” and that’s just not feasible at this point. I’m currently able to work from home so I’m not sweating, but if we go months longer that could change.

I don’t want to get this thing, and I certainly want to limit how many people do. I really have no idea what the right move is. I just think we need to remember why we are staying at home in the first place

[GuitarBilly]

While I’m on the “better safe than sorry” side of this, I feel the part I bolded above has been lost by a lot of people. The original stay at hone was to let hospitals catch up and be able to handle this.

In a lot of places it now feels like “we can’t get out of lockdown until no one will die” and that’s just not feasible at this point. I’m currently able to work from home so I’m not sweating, but if we go months longer that could change.

I don’t want to get this thing, and I certainly want to limit how many people do. I really have no idea what the right move is. I just think we need to remember why we are staying at home in the first place

I don't know if it's been lost. I don't know of anyone who thinks we should stay closed until deaths are near zero ( well, I'm sure some nutjobs think that, but it's not a significant amount) .

What I see is people just wanting to wait until they meet the CDC guidelines for each phase, that's all. And honestly, I think there's more agreement about that than anything else.

but like everything else in this country, the extremists make the most noise (on both sides).

[Schweezly]

While I’m on the “better safe than sorry” side of this, I feel the part I bolded above has been lost by a lot of people. The original stay at hone was to let hospitals catch up and be able to handle this.

In a lot of places it now feels like “we can’t get out of lockdown until no one will die” and that’s just not feasible at this point. I’m currently able to work from home so I’m not sweating, but if we go months longer that could change.

I don’t want to get this thing, and I certainly want to limit how many people do. I really have no idea what the right move is. I just think we need to remember why we are staying at home in the first place

I don't know if it's been lost. I don't know of anyone who thinks we should stay closed until deaths are near zero ( well, I'm sure some nutjobs think that, but it's not a significant amount) .

What I see is people just wanting to wait until they meet the CDC guidelines for each phase, that's all. And honestly, I think there's more agreement about that than anything else.

but like everything else in this country, the extremists make the most noise (on both sides).

Fair enough. I’m kind of in a bubble at home and not watching the news, so maybe I don’t have the pulse of the nation as a whole. Or maybe I just have family members complaining on social media