Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sought...

[Noah]

That's the point though. It's not the house. It's 40 tea party members holding the rest hostage because they didn't get their way.

The last I heard those 40 tea party members were taking turns raping Obama's dog. I've got to stop reading MSNBC.

[madryan]

That's the point though. It's not the house. It's 40 tea party members holding the rest hostage because they didn't get their way.

So you say that 40 is more powerful than 400?

When they've hot the speaker by the balls they are

[Noah]

Speaking of xenophobia, my friend from China nearly tore my head off the time I told her I was thinking of visiting Japan someday. To be fair she was from Qingdao (formerly known as Tsingtao), where they had a pretty rough time in WWII.

[Dickarms]

i want to be a parent to this nation and slap both of these stupid motherfuckers and say " if you cant agree, we're not going into the toy store. sit in the car, shut the fuck up, and think about what youve done"


goddamn this shit, seriously.

[Harvest]

As usual, Friedman nails it.

The Roots of the Government Shutdown is republished with permission of Stratfor.

For most Americans, private life is more important than public life. There is only so much time and energy available, the issues are arcane and rarely involve things that will change ordinary citizens' lives much, and there is little broad-based ideological passion. Citizens frequently don't know or care who their congressman is, let alone who their state senator is. They care about schools and roads and taxes, and so long as those are functioning reasonably well, they are content.

A candidate in either party does not need the votes of the majority of registered voters. He needs the votes of the majority of voters who will show up. In the past model, voters showed up because, say, they got their job on the highway crew from the county boss, and they had to appear at the polls if they wanted to keep it. Those days are gone. Now, people show up because of their passionate belief in a particular ideology, and money is spent convincing them that a candidate shares their passionate commitment.

In the 20th century, the boss system selected such presidents as Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower and John Kennedy. I was struck at how a self-evidently corrupt and undemocratic system would have selected such impressive candidates (albeit along with Warren Harding and other less impressive ones). The system should not have worked, but on the whole, it worked better than we might have imagined. I leave to others to judge how these compare to post-reform candidates like Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush or Barack Obama.

There is a vast difference between principle and ideology. Principles are core values that do not dictate every action on every subject, but guide you in some way. Ideology as an explanation of how the world works is comprehensive and compelling. Most presidents find that governing requires principles, but won't allow ideology. But it is the senators and particularly the congressmen -- who run in districts where perhaps 20 percent of eligible voters vote in primaries, most of them ideologues -- who are forced away from principle and toward ideology.

All political systems are flawed and all political reforms have unexpected and frequently unwelcome consequences....

It is not ideology that is the problem. It is the overrepresentation of ideologues in the voting booth. Most Americans are not ideologues, and therefore the reformist model has turned out to be as unrepresentative as the political boss system was. This isn't the ideologues fault; they are merely doing what they believe. But most voters are indifferent.

No TL;DR - read the whole article and stop getting your "news" from CNN or Fox.

[Hardtail]

as a repub ... I'm

- not big on gay marriage (legal union is 100% fine by me - let them have the same legal rights, just do NOT call it marriage, because it's not).

- no abortion (not big on killing kids, even unborn ones).

- not big on the gov't fucking with my guns (ok, let them make everyone QUALIFY to own whatever they want to own ... if a person qualifies, meaning is sane and upstanding citizen, then leave them the fuck alone).

- welfare, etc - that's fine, some genuinely need it ... but needs to be tightenend up, so don't have lifetime recipients.

- border issue - close up that shit NOW. For the ones that are already here - to stay here, make them ASSIMILATE by going to schools that only teach ENGLISH - kind of like our forefathers did)

OK, I'm about done ... happy ?

[Lloyd Blankfein]

You close those borders and your supermarket bill will triple.

What we need to do is just stop making an incentive to come here and squirt kids out. If that is done, the only mexicans that will risk life and limb are the ones who want to work and be American.

I'm torn on it because the only Mexican immigrants I see on a day to day are the ones that work like you cannot imagine.

These are the ones I'd goto the mattresses with, defend and respect.

Shutting the border down affects the good honest ones and I don't agree with it. If we had shut down borders, my family would have never been able to be American- would have never been allowed to come into America from Sicily.

We don't need to keep beating on these Mexicans, life is already pretty hard for them. Lets just find a way to attract the badasses and turn away the "sleeping under a tree at the park" Mexicans. And it doesn't include $15k admission price with a 3 year waiting period and 500 forms to be filled out.

That's not the America that my great grandfather was met with, it shouldn't be for them either.

[indienoise]

You close those borders and your supermarket bill will triple.

What we need to do is just stop making an incentive to come here and squirt kids out. If that is done, the only mexicans that will risk life and limb are the ones who want to work and be American.

I'm torn on it because the only Mexican immigrants I see on a day to day are the ones that work like you cannot imagine.

These are the ones I'd goto the mattresses with, defend and respect.

Shutting the border down affects the good honest ones and I don't agree with it. If we had shut down borders, my family would have never been able to be American- would have never been allowed to come into America from Sicily.

We don't need to keep beating on these Mexicans, life is already pretty hard for them. Lets just find a way to attract the badasses and turn away the "sleeping under a tree at the park" Mexicans. And it doesn't include $15k admission price with a 3 year waiting period and 500 forms to be filled out.

That's not the America that my great grandfather was met with, it shouldn't be for them either.

Absolutely. I truly don't get why the immigration process is so difficult. We have a high concentration of illegal immigrants in my area too, and by and large they're not bad folk. The only downsides to them being here are caused BY the fact that they couldn't acquire legal status. (i.e. not being able to register and insure a car and thus causing a wreck they couldn't pay for, for example). They aren't a drain on society. They don't receive benefits they aren't paying for. Their kids do go to local schools, but those are paid for by property taxes anyway so they're no more a leech than a citizen who owns no property but their kids go to school anyway. They're paying for water/sewer and other municipal services, so they're at least paying in that way. That's just the way it works. They aren't "stealing jobs", they're doing jobs that entitlement-mentality Americans don't want or won't do anyway. Their money they earn is going back into local economies. There's space for them, and if not, space can be made for them and a development or property management company will be earning additional money because of them. I don't see the big deal. Make it easier to get a visa or attain citizenship and get them paying income tax like the rest of us.

[rear naked]

Uh....immigration HELPS the economy. DEY didn't TUCK UR JERBZ

[madryan]

Uh....immigration HELPS the economy. DEY didn't TUCK UR JERBZ

This.

The fuckwits in the tea party don't understand that the problem we have right now with the deficit is exactly because we don't have enough workers to support the number of people on Social Security. It's exactly opposite of what it was when the program was instituted. Similarly, people equate government debt with the health of the economy (usually they're tea party members) which has absolutely no relationship, or at most a minimal one.

Our problem with jobs is that the jobs left the building. The manufacturing jobs which used to prop up our middle class went to China so that you could buy cheap Line-6 Gear. The really high end manufacturing jobs which are the only thing keeping us afloat are going to leave if we don't un-fuck our education system because companies want trained, educated workers, not a bunch of theocratic automatons.

Bill Gates has it absolutely right. We should hand out a green card with every advanced degree we award to students who come here to study. We should provide an easy path to citizenship for their families, and we should be fixing our immigration process.

Guess who's blocked every form of immigration reform legislation for the last several years? I'll give you a hint, they're the same people who think closing the borders is a dandy idea.

Food for thought... This country was built by immigrants. My family alone has 5 different languages spoken in it. Portuguese, Italian, Spanish, Swedish, and English.

[Telephant]

Hardtail should stick to beating off to fatties. Thats what he's best at. Closing down the border is one of THE most Un-American things I've heard in a while. Compound that retardation with this fucking semantics game conservatives like to play with "marriage" vs "civil union" and I'm at a loss for words. Stupidity. It happens everywhere.

[Noah]

Hardtail should stick to beating off to fatties. Thats what he's best at. Closing down the border is one of THE most Un-American things I've heard in a while. Compound that retardation with this fucking semantics game conservatives like to play with "marriage" vs "civil union" and I'm at a loss for words. Stupidity. It happens everywhere.

What's wrong with beating off to fatties?

I think the current system where we look the other way while millions of people come here and we pay them less than minimum wage is disgusting. I'd be willing to pay more for groceries if it meant someone could legitimately make a career working on a farm or mowing lawns and not beat himself into an early grave working like a dog.

I'd like to see quotas raised for Mexico but not the rest of the world. They are our allies and good neighbors and NAFTA partners. Whatever we work out with the Mexican government should be mutual so Americans can go and work and live in Mexico if they want to.

If you want a society with all kinds of expensive social benefits programs you simply can't have open borders with the entire world.

[flyingskull]

I find the very fact that we self-identify as liberals or conservatives interesting... and immediately bias the other side as wrong. Not just wrong: Stupid, knuckle-dragging, mongoloids.

I was recently in Phoenix after not being in the states for a while. We have our own left/right biases here in Canada (which boil down to left and slightly more left although pundits will tell you it's fundamental extremism), but if Phoenix is any representation the US is a completely different ballgame. Just the sheer amount of bleeting going on from both sides of the bench is mind boggling. I don't know if it's mob mentality to the extreme or what it is. Seems like EVERYTHING down there lumps you into one group or the other. If you buy a nonfat latte from Starbucks you're a liberal hippie who's waiting for the resurgence of Marxism. If you OWN a Starbucks store you're a right-wing fascist for making money on something. Nobody is just a person, trying to make their way through life - they're so called mortal enemies, even though they are ironically intimately connected.

It has been identified from history that as economic conditions worsen, the support for more extreme ideologies on both sides of the spectrum increases. This is popping up everywhere - everywhere in the Eurozone, and now under the guise of normal Democrat and Republican politics in the US. Who's behind that? Some would argue the real Lloyd Blankfein (not our GAB imposter ), Jamie Diamond, Ben Bernanke, and the rest of the banker cronies who tried to make us believe that perpetual exponential economic growth is possible.

As for religion, I think in this day and age, under objective review we can see that the most heinous acts in history have been done in the name of God - mostly the Christian God or Muslim God... take your pick. A rational person of any denomination would realize that a diverse population should probably be governed by a more tolerant set of rules than any text that has been mistranslated for thousands of years tells us to. We generally don't think Sharia law is a good idea, yet often fail to see that Christian-based lawmaking is effectively the same thing to people of other faiths.

For the record I call myself a fiscal conservative and social moderate.

Great post!

Also those who have read the Wealth of Nations or are interested in doing so... don't stop there.
From the same era check out:

Adam Smith's earlier work : The Theory of Moral Sentiments (1759) - lays psychological groundwork for WON
David Hume : Political Discourse (1741-1742)
Francois Quesnay: Tableau Economique (1758)

Also check out tangentially related works of Hobbes, Locke, Bacon, and Machiavelli. Individualist orientation, realpolitik and inductive methods of reasoning play a big part here.

VERY interesting times in the development of modern economic and political theory. Remember this era in European history was the time of the mercantilists, the concept of capitalism was just developing.

[***1776***]

Who/what country has a 'open border" policy on the planet? Does anyone know? ---- Hows Mexico border policy to people from Central America?


This open door policy is bullshit and its NOT unamerican at all, we are a nation of immigrants but LEGAL immigration and also a nation of laws, something that is not mentioned enough


Nobody is saying throw them out the country, (no 1) but we cannot continue to allow millions of mostly poor uneducated people into this country, we have enough of our own. Every country across the globe has a right to know whos going in and out of its border, i dont think that its "irrational" to do this, in fact you SHOULD know this as a nation


To the " Took ourrr jobs crowd" --- What do you think importing millions of low skilled workers does to the pay scale of working people in a soft economy? People like roofers, construction workers, floor guys, laborer's, etc, etc blue collar types? This is rarely if EVER brought up because people rather have the emotional hyperbole position

[indienoise]

Yeah, the marriage vs. civil union thing is dumb at best. There's no valid argument FOR that. Let two people marry, and leave them alone.
It's kind of funny to me that it's the conservative types who are all about "FREE TRADE" who are so against immigration. Yeah, we do have a process, and yeah, there probably should be some kind of penalty for attempting to circumvent it. A penalty, not being blacklisted. But that's another topic. Point is, those types who want all the free trade (an idea I can get behind when implemented in a sane manner!) want to kick all the "illegals" out??? Uh, there's two ways to create business growth...create a market for something that doesn't already exist, or widen your current market. I'm pretty sure allowing immigration is the same as increasing the number of consumers in the economy, just sayin'. Why WOULDN'T they want that? More consumers = more revenue = more jobs = more consumption. It's a cycle.

[soulsurfer]

indienoise, the difference is 'legal' vs non-tax paying, resource using, non-language speaking, separatist-by-default, illegal immigration.

Legal migrant workers are wanted and needed. Illegal immigration puts a burden on a society that is disproportional to any economic benefits. (I really don't like talking about ppl as a commodity, but here we are)

It's been shown that everyone concerned with the issue, benefits by assimilation. Labor, culture, new political perspectives, politics, trade, tourism, traditions, greater tax base, education, language, art, music, and etc...both the immigrant and the society that welcomes them are made richer by working together.

But when there are a large number of illegal immigrants. They are forced to hide and seclude themselves from the society the are living in. language becomes an issue, hindering education. No tax revenue from underpaid labor. many resources are directly consumed but not directly contributed to. Much of their earnings are rifled back to their home country. (becomes very inefficient- as it costs more for them to be here than the $/products they produce)
Not to mention that because of the 'fear' of being caught and thus secluding themselves from their host, they do not contribute to society's culture.

I repeat, every country benefits by efficient assimilation...streamlined, legal immigration.

[indienoise]

indienoise, the difference is 'legal' vs non-tax paying, resource using, non-language speaking, separatist-by-default, illegal immigration.

Legal migrant workers are wanted and needed. Illegal immigration puts a burden on a society that is disproportional to any economic benefits. (I really don't like talking about ppl as a commodity, but here we are)

It's been shown that everyone concerned with the issue, benefits by assimilation. Labor, culture, new political perspectives, politics, trade, tourism, traditions, greater tax base, education, language, art, music, and etc...both the immigrant and the society that welcomes them are made richer by working together.

But when there are a large number of illegal immigrants. They are forced to hide and seclude themselves from the society the are living in. language becomes an issue, hindering education. No tax revenue from underpaid labor. many resources are directly consumed but not directly contributed to. Much of their earnings are rifled back to their home country. (becomes very inefficient- as it costs more for them to be here than the $/products they produce)
Not to mention that because of the 'fear' of being caught and thus secluding themselves from their host, they do not contribute to society's culture.

I repeat, every country benefits by efficient assimilation...streamlined, legal immigration.

I think you misunderstand my intent. We pretty much agree. That's exactly the sort of immigrant culture created by everyone screaming to close the borders as opposed to deal with the immigrants we've already got, and encourage more immigration to occur legally. I WANT to see people move here, and I want it to be much simpler to do it legally. I've known quite a few folks who have done it legally, and from visa to citizenship is a freakin' 10 to 15 year process. It's ridiculous.
My intent is to ask why anyone would want to make it difficult? Let people move in and contribute!

[madryan]

Yes. And yet we spend millions on giant fences in the desert instead of actually even discussing the issue.

[soulsurfer]

I guess I did misunderstand, apologies.
Conversely, we don't want 'open boarders' where anyone and everyone gets in unchecked. (that's what is happening now with illegal immigration -bringing burdens)

Some ppl that are crying 'close the boarders' are saying what you and I are. They want the hemorrhage of ppl tunneling in, under and over the fences to stop while the system gets reworked for efficiency.

Don't listen to the handful of ppl that are racist and bigoted. And don't let the media use that either. (seems to be their 'go to' tactic). Because it really is just a loud, but handful of ppl.
Most americans like high quality, low cost goods and services.
Most love the diverse cultures (just look around at all the 'festivals' thru' out the year, across the country) So, I don't believe that race is the issue as some would purport.

[soulsurfer]

Yes. And yet we spend millions on giant fences in the desert instead of actually even discussing the issue.

it gets talked about. Hot topic in fact...always has been. Irish immigrants. Chinese labor brought in to build the railroads. During the 50's, Mexican illegal immigrants were literally herded from the Canadian boarder back to mexico.

We've always had to answer questions asked in an accusative tone- 'who are you', where did you come from', 'what are you doing here'.
Answer any of those unsatisfactorily-- get your ass kicked.

There are more reasons to secure our boarders than just illegal immigration. Drugs. Sex trafficking. Terrorists. or anyone else that would do our society harm rather than good.

So I don't see much to discuss really. The boarders should be secured.

[madryan]

Yes. And yet we spend millions on giant fences in the desert instead of actually even discussing the issue.

it gets talked about. Hot topic in fact...always has been. Irish immigrants. Chinese labor brought in to build the railroads. During the 50's, Mexican illegal immigrants were literally herded from the Canadian boarder back to mexico.

We've always had to answer questions asked in an accusative tone- 'who are you', where did you come from', 'what are you doing here'.
Answer any of those unsatisfactorily-- get your ass kicked.

There are more reasons to secure our boarders than just illegal immigration. Drugs. Sex trafficking. Terrorists. or anyone else that would do our society harm rather than good.

So I don't see much to discuss really. The boarders should be secured.

It gets talked about but not at the policy level.

The children in DC can't sit down and have a rational discussion about what to do about it because immigration reform is constantly used as a political football. Depending on which part of my family you look at, some of them have been here less than a century, much less in my dad's family's case. Some came over in chained in the belly of a slave ship, and some came over 20 years ago from Brazil. It's all good. We're all Americans. That's the part that everyone misses out on. My Niece and Nephew are half Mexican but they're American. My cousins grew up speaking Italian but they're American. One of them married a girl from São Paulo but them and their kids are all Americans.

I used to work for some folks who were so racist that if they knew my Great Grandfather was half black I'd have been fired on the spot. Dedicated Tea Party folks who thought we should set up machine gun bunkers and shoot people coming across the border. All they saw was my blue eyes I inherited from my Swedish father and the Irish side of my mom's family. They missed out on my thick, curly dark hair and fairly dark skin. I don't understand that mentality. I honestly don't. I mean in the abstract I do, but I can't internalize it and actually see the world from that point of view. It just makes no sense to me.

I just want to shake people. We're all immigrants. Unless you're a significant percentage of Native American you're an immigrant or descended from immigrants. The idea that having people come here, whether legally or illegally somehow damages our country is asinine.

So yes, while we've always had a national dialog on immigration, whether productive or not, our politicians are currently not talking. Not to play the partisan card but the republicans have refused to even come to the table since they took over the house, and truth be told, even before that.

[soulsurfer]

We all know someone who was racist...or we've had to live with or work for someone that was racist. My dad was a mixed bag of racist fuckwad. He even moved us to a small town in Michigan where the grandragon of the KKK lived, just to be "closer to ppl like us". fuckwad.

But congress isn't racist. So its a non issue when it comes to immigration. Because there are so many levels of immigration, we should speak specifically about illegal immigration...or boarder security. (two different animals)
There in lies the issue. The left wants the boarder left alone to allow for illegals to enter and vote (California and other states are now issuing DL to illegal immigrants...guess what the criteria for voting is? you got it -a DL.
And because that also allows criminals and riff raft to get the same bennys, it becomes a security issue.

Its one thing to try and assimilate immigrants that are working to do the same...it is totally another issue to open the door to whomever will pass thru' just to get a vote.

So the left calls 'foul' and cries 'racist!' and the right calls 'foul' and 'we need security'.

security, not from the person wanting to make a better life for themselves...but from the unknown number of criminals and terrorist wanting to do the US harm.
We stand with our eyes wide shut.

[madryan]

We all know someone who was racist...or we've had to live with or work for someone that was racist. My dad was a mixed bag of racist fuckwad. He even moved us to a small town in Michigan where the grandragon of the KKK lived, just to be "closer to ppl like us". fuckwad.

But congress isn't racist. So its a non issue when it comes to immigration. Because there are so many levels of immigration, we should speak specifically about illegal immigration...or boarder security. (two different animals)
There in lies the issue. The left wants the boarder left alone to allow for illegals to enter and vote (California and other states are now issuing DL to illegal immigrants...guess what the criteria for voting is? you got it -a DL.
And because that also allows criminals and riff raft to get the same bennys, it becomes a security issue.

Its one thing to try and assimilate immigrants that are working to do the same...it is totally another issue to open the door to whomever will pass thru' just to get a vote.

So the left calls 'foul' and cries 'racist!' and the right calls 'foul' and 'we need security'.

security, not from the person wanting to make a better life for themselves...but from the unknown number of criminals and terrorist wanting to do the US harm.
We stand with our eyes wide shut.

You need more than simply a dl to vote. Look it up.

[soulsurfer]

It's not legal to vote on national issues, but it happens. In California illegals vote on local issues. All you have to have is an DL to register.
check it yourself.

[madryan]

It's not legal to vote on national issues, but it happens. In California illegals vote on local issues. All you have to have is an DL to register.
check it yourself.

Utter bullshit

I have at times lived in ca and half my family lives down there still. I assure you that illegal immigrants don't vote.