Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sought...

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madryan
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Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sought...

Post by madryan »

I'm seriously not trolling here but I think this is at the root of the divide in our nation. When I and many of my "Librul" friends look at conservatives this is the ideology we see expressed. Conservatives may not come right out and say it (Although they often actually do) but their policies and actions speak louder than words.

My question for conservatives is this... How do you justify forcing a philosophy based essentially on rational self interest, which is fine if you're an individual, upon our whole country? This entire approach is almost totally incompatible with a humane society and yet we continue to try and force it to fit.

http://proudtobeafilthyliberalscum.com/ ... m-instead/

A fat, smug bastard friend of mine (that’s his chosen nickname, The FSB) pointed out to me some time ago that pretty much ALL conservative politics are selfish at their core. Take any conservative position on a social or economic issue and boil away all the rhetoric and what you are left with is “I got mine, screw you.”

I thought about that for a while. I suppose its simplicity struck me as being a little too easy, a little too sound bitey. So I sat down and made a list:

No gay marriage – Homosexuality makes me uncomfortable (due to misguided religious influence, poor upbringing or both) so gay people should be punished because of my beliefs. Stoopid homos…
No welfare, food stamps or Medicaid – I’m not poor enough to qualify for these programs so my tax dollars shouldn’t pay for it. Stoopid poor people and by poor I really mean black…
No health care reform – Why should I help pay for other people who are sick when I’m not? Stoopid sick people…
No environmental protection – Environmental laws makes things more expensive for me and that’s bad. I also don’t understand the concept of long term impact; I want cheap gas and gadgets now! Stoopid…ah, you get the idea…
Don’t raise my taxes – EVER. The government can find its own money to pay for stuff.
Medicare – Young conservatives: Why should I help pay for old people and the disabled? Older conservatives: Keep your government hands off my Medicare!
Social Security – Young conservatives: Sacrifices need to be made, people should take care of themselves, not depend on handouts from people like me. Older conservatives: Sacrifices need to be made BUT DON’T YOU TOUCH MY SOCIAL SECURITY!
No abortion – The government should tell women what to do with their bodies because Idon’t like abortion.
No prayer in school? – GOVERNMENT OVERREACH!! I like Republican Jesus™ so everyone should have to listen to my prayers. No Muslim prayers, though. That’s indoctrination.

This list goes on for some time. The more I thought about it, the more obvious it became. A conservative society is a borderline sociopathic society.

Dictionary.com defines a sociopath as: a person, as a psychopathic personality, whose behavior is antisocial and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

Conservapedia says a sociopath is “someone with a personality disorder characterized by an antisocial behavior and an absence of moral responsibility or social conscience.” (I would have cited Wikipedia but we all know they’re a liberal front for George Soros, I think I heard that on Glenn Beck)

The key words here are “moral responsibility” and “social conscience”. Conservative politics lack these essential characteristics. In their place we find greed, hate, lies, an inability to empathize and an overblown sense of entitlement and self importance. In other words: all the indicators of a seriously disturbed person. Except it’s a political philosophy and it has millions of disciples.

But Justin, you filthy liberal scum, how can you say that?

Well, that’s kind of easy. Who is the guiding light of conservatives (and Libertarians) all the way from corrupt CEOs down to easily manipulated Tea Party fanatics? Ayn Rand.

Ayn Rand’s specific worldview was that “The pursuit of his (man’s) own rational self-interest and of his own happiness is the highest moral purpose of his life.” This is in direct opposition to a functional humane society where the whole must be cohesive in order to provide for its weakest and most vulnerable. You’ll notice my inclusion of the word “humane”. You can have a perfectly functional society without a shred of humanity in it. Take, for example, the Industrial Age societies. They literally built the foundations for the world we know and yet they allowed or even encouraged child labor; essentially the slavery of children. Speaking of slavery, they had THAT, too, and no matter what Haley Barbour, Pat Buchanan and the other apologists revisionists would have you think, it was horrible and inhumane.

Ayn Rand’s ideal world is one where society has no say in your actions short of you physically assaulting another person. “The only function of the government, in such a society, is the task of protecting man’s rights, i.e., the task of protecting him from physical force.”[ii] One is forced to wonder what she would make of Wall Street’s Epic Fail. Rand was a big champion of no regulation at all. Close your eyes and imagine what Wall Street could do with even less regulation than it had before. Think of all the possibilities. Taste the freedom.

Are you done vomiting yet?

Do you know why Rand’s laissez-faire utopia would fail? It’s the exact same reason a socialist utopia would fail; people are imperfect. We are greedy, envious, petty and selfish. There will always be some among us who will better themselves specifically to the detriment of others because they simply don’t care. There will always be those who, as they gain power and wealth, will want more at any expense. We saw this in action in communist Russia. It was rife with the kind of corruption described so very well in George Orwell’s Animal Farm. Everyone was equal, but some were more equal than others.

We see it today in that bastion of capitalism: America and its budding Oligarchy. As wealth and power becomes ever more concentrated, the rest of us suffer. Any attempts to remedy the situation by imposing restrictions on the rich and powerful to keep them from fleecing the country is met with howls of “class warfare”, “Socialism” and “government overreach.” Any attempts to remove any of the sweetheart deals in place allowing those same anti-government rich and powerful to pay less taxes (or no taxes at all) or to reap billions in unnecessary subsidies are also met with more howls of unfair treatment.

Now that’s what I call having your cake and eating it, too.

These people are sociopaths, pure and simple. As long as they get what they “deserve”, it doesn’t matter what happens to anyone else. Homeless families are not their problem. Malnourished children are not their problem. Uninsured sick people are not their problem. The elderly reduced to abject poverty (as they were before the advent of Social Security) are not their problem.

Ayn Rand and her delusional rantings provide a rationalization for this immoral behavior. After the Enron scandal and again after the crash in 2008, CEOs started to reread Atlas Shrugged. “CEOs put the book down knowing in their hearts that they are not the greedy crooks they are portrayed to be in today’s business headlines but are heroes like the characters in Rand’s novel.”[iii]

Heroes? Really? Is that so?

I would love to walk a group of Wall Street executives out to a Tea Party rally and have them explain to the crowd all the ways these “heroes” have stolen away the TPers money and future. Then announce that it’s OK because Ayn Rand says self interest and greed are good so whatever these “heroes” do in pursuit of that goal is morally just, even necessary. I figure the cognitive dissonance would make at least half of the crowd’s heads explode.

Mahatma Ghandi said a society is judged by how it treats its most vulnerable. By this very simple criterion, the conservative sociopathic society would be found wanting and yet the conservative movement claims to be the party of God, family and human decency. It is none of these things.
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by Lloyd Blankfein »

There's many different strokes within the conservative arena, just as there are in the liberal arena.

This blog posts really just describes the conservative neocapitalists.

The guys whose dad threw them keys to a fully functioning corporation, the ones who went to Harvard- or the skull and bones types. They're the privileged ones. These types don't understand problems as they were never given any.

These are the guys who are 18 in BMW's.


Now me, I find that the new gadget crowd or the new sneaker crowd are actually more from the lower class Obama types. These are the same guys who shoot eachother in line at a new Jordan shoe release. I don't see that with other groups. Or trample people in line at Walmart on Black Friday. You know this is true, and since we're using broad generalizations, lets throw it out there.


There are other conservatives, like me, who don't give a shit about gay marriage or pot or abortions.

I'm a steward of my land, I agree with a lot of environmental protections. That's why California looks like California and Texas looks like the surface of the moon.

I have no problem with programs that help people who hit a wall, I do have a problem with inner city scumfucks who use their assistance to buy crack, the trailer fucks who use it to buy meth and the Mexican women who don't get married legally so they can claim single mother status while amigo works for cash.

I don't like old white guys who grew up in a time where they could graduate high school and buy a house while working at a plant making washing machines try to tell people my age that we are lazy and entitled (entitled? Lets talk about social security, Medicare, or you off shoring all our jobs in the 70's and 80's, yeah, we're entitled).
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by madryan »

Lloyd Blankfein wrote:There's many different strokes within the conservative arena, just as there are in the liberal arena.

This blog posts really just describes the conservative neocapitalists.

The guys whose dad threw them keys to a fully functioning corporation, the ones who went to Harvard- or the skull and bones types. They're the privileged ones. These types don't understand problems as they were never given any.

These are the guys who are 18 in BMW's.


Now me, I find that the new gadget crowd or the new sneaker crowd are actually more from the lower class Obama types. These are the same guys who shoot eachother in line at a new Jordan shoe release. I don't see that with other groups. Or trample people in line at Walmart on Black Friday. You know this is true, and since we're using broad generalizations, lets throw it out there.


There are other conservatives, like me, who don't give a shit about gay marriage or pot or abortions.

I'm a steward of my land, I agree with a lot of environmental protections. That's why California looks like California and Texas looks like the surface of the moon.

I have no problem with programs that help people who hit a wall, I do have a problem with inner city scumfucks who use their assistance to buy crack, the trailer fucks who use it to buy meth and the Mexican women who don't get married legally so they can claim single mother status while amigo works for cash.

I don't like old white guys who grew up in a time where they could graduate high school and buy a house while working at a plant making washing machines try to tell people my age that we are lazy and entitled (entitled? Lets talk about social security, Medicare, or you off shoring all our jobs in the 70's and 80's, yeah, we're entitled).


You and I agree on alot and we're definitely not typical.

Lots of the folks in the drivers seat adhere to the ideology I highlighted above. It's a real problem.
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by Lloyd Blankfein »

I just don't understand why my party focuses so much time on gays, stoners and people who don't want kids.

They act like this gay thing is brand new. Man, emperors, kings, lots of them were gay. This was hundreds of years ago.

Pot? Uhhhh, if you're a bible thumper, I hate to break it to you, but god made marijuana. As far as the bible is concerned, the apple is worse than pot. Double standard, how do they work?

Abortions? Who cares.

I mean, I don't want my kids to be gay out of selfish pride (and I'll admit it), I'd still love them if they were though. I wouldn't want my fiancé to get an abortion, but it's not my job to judge other (the bible, remember?) and set rules for other people's lives and situation.
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by ***1776*** »

That's a VERY big brush that's being used to paint people (in fact 2 big)..


There are topics is disagree with the right on like abortion (Im 100% pro choice, but I am against late-term and NO parental notification abortions), where does that "fit"?

Im fine with gay marriage (If voted on by that particular/individual state and NOT overturned by a activist judge!) Go google Log Cabin Republicans!

Im ok with a small progressive tax range as long as EVERYONE (I mean everyone) pays income tax "skin in game" as Obama says




No environmental protection is a WILD inaccuracy, WILD!! - nobody wants dirty air and pollution rivers (insane misnomer) Do you have ANY idea how many new rules and regs the EPA can push through? ---- Is it possible that the EPA can actually become a 'strongarm' and become political these days? --- Its possible that they CAN SHUT DOWN a big project because of a insect or flower? think about that?

The EPA (and OHSHA) was started by a "evil Republican" (Nixon I believe in 1971 or so) got that? -- BTW you couldn't build the hoover Damn with todays current environment, think about that for a second! :(

The war on poverty was started by President Johnson some 50 years ago, we have spent $ TRILLIONS of tax payer dollars and what do we have? - Graduation rates are about the same, crime levels are not dramatically different, the communities are still in big trouble? See many big city areas! --- 50 GAWWTDAMN years later and what do we have to show for it? Honestly, is it working? Should we stay on the same path? :(


There are just sooo many misnomers and inaccuracies in your post and that's a small part of the problem today, people NOT understanding the other side and NOT talking to each other as much in a open and HONEST (non PC) dialogue!


There are issues as well but that's a start for me ---- Factor in a media that rather keep us at each others throat then truly informed and you have a recipe for phailsauce! Hows that for a "start"?


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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by madryan »

***1776*** wrote:That's a VERY big brush that's being used to paint people (in fact 2 big)..


There are topics is disagree with the right on like abortion (Im 100% pro choice, but I am against late-term and NO parental notification abortions), where does that "fit"?

Im fine with gay marriage (If voted on by that particular/individual state and NOT overturned by a activist judge!) Go google Log Cabin Republicans!

Im ok with a small progressive tax range as long as EVERYONE (I mean everyone) pays income tax "skin in game" as Obama says




No environmental protection is a WILD inaccuracy, WILD!! - nobody wants dirty air and pollution rivers (insane misnomer) Do you have ANY idea how many new rules and regs the EPA can push through? ---- Is it possible that the EPA can actually become a 'strongarm' and become political these days? --- Its possible that they CAN SHUT DOWN a big project because of a insect or flower? think about that?

The EPA (and OHSHA) was started by a "evil Republican" (Nixon I believe in 1971 or so) got that? -- BTW you couldn't build the hoover Damn with todays current environment, think about that for a second! :(

The war on poverty was started by President Johnson some 50 years ago, we have spent $ TRILLIONS of tax payer dollars and what do we have? - Graduation rates are about the same, crime levels are not dramatically different, the communities are still in big trouble? See many big city areas! --- 50 GAWWTDAMN years later and what do we have to show for it? Honestly, is it working? Should we stay on the same path? :(


There are just sooo many misnomers and inaccuracies in your post and that's a small part of the problem today, people NOT understanding the other side and NOT talking to each other as much in a open and HONEST (non PC) dialogue!


There are issues as well but that's a start for me ---- Factor in a media that rather keep us at each others throat then truly informed and you have a recipe for phailsauce! Hows that for a "start"?


:hmm:


Good points

The war on poverty has absolutely been successful as far as its gone. One of the conservative talking points on that is that we have more people living in poverty than we did when it was adopted. Duh... We have shitloads more people and the poverty level is raised every so often to reflect utility not just inflation.

But the outright mean spirited shit one sees directed at the poor by the right is astounding. Just have a look at the tea party rhetoric regarding the poor and minorities and then think about the fact that Cruz and the rest of the folks actually calling the shots in the Republican Party get their marching orders from those assholes.
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by madryan »

Dunning~Kruger wrote:
Lloyd Blankfein wrote:I just don't understand why my party focuses so much time on gays, stoners and people who don't wat like this gay thing is brand new. Man, emperors, kings, lots of them were gay. This was hundreds of years ago.

Pot? Uhhhh, if you're a bible thumper, I hate to break it to you, but god made marijuana. As far as the bible is concerned, the apple is worse than pot. Double standard, how do they work?

Abortions? Who cares.

I mean, I don't want my kids to be gay out of selfish pride (and I'll admit it), I'd still love them if they were though. I wouldn't want my fiancé to get an abortion, but it's not my job to judge other (the bible, remember?) and set rules for other people's lives and situation.


This.

Everything this man stated wich conservetives believe in is completely against Ayn Rand Philosophies so dont get the two mixed up Madryan.

If Ayn Rand were here today she would have nothing to do with conservative. Conservatives of her time tought she was to radical and extreme and that her selfish ideas were very dangerouse because greed, self interest, and the importance of the individual were responsible for the Great Depression.

Ayn Rand would be behind abortion, gays rights, she would be behing pot smokers all the way and their freedom to be individuals, Ayn Rand was a secular philoshipher so she would have no time for giving a damn about your rights to pray in class.

As far as the enviornment go and taxes you are correct tough.

You see Ayn Rand wasnt afraid to say she was greedy, self interested, or egotistic and neither am I. Why? because she had diffrent diffenitions of them.

Her definition of greed is diffrent from yours. Ayn Rand wants people to be greedy in a positive manner to feed into their ambitions and acomplish their life goals and to find a self.

She does not want greed she wants selfisness. She argues that people are not selfish and in reality thoes who are selfish in a negative way do not have a "self" and are ignorant of that fact.

The protection of Intelectual Wealth were Rands principle ideas and the protection of that wealth from those who dont produce anything. Who are you to demand taxes? To demand someone willingly give up their wealth?

Why do you need this persons wealth, are you incapable of producing any of your own. If you are then Ayn Rand would say good ridence its not my problem.

Nothing is more dispicable than the forceful taking of intelectual wealth by force and that is what taxes are. This is the type of greed she belives to be negative and the type of greed that is unsatisfactory of man.

Because you are incapable of producing any intelectual wealth it must be taken from others?

This rational is completely ubsurd.


Ayn Rands philosophies where a blueprint for how to turn a vibrant economy into a Banana Republic.

Adam Smith, way back in 1776 had it absolutely right and nothing since has proven him wrong. A vibrant middle class is the biggest generator of wealth there is. The problem is, in order for that to happen you have to leave the wealth in the middle class. Do that and everyone benefits. Do what we've done over the last 30 or so years which is redistribute wealth from the bottom up, cutting the burden on the very top earners and thus making everyone else shoulder the burden, and you simply sabotage the middle class.

BTW, I've read and re-read most of Rands stuff, not because she was a good writer, but because in its own way it was an important way of looking at the world and I felt it important to understand it. Horrid writing in fact, but some ideas that are basically super simple, appeal to the greedy and mean spirited among us and thus, are readily adopted by them.
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by Lloyd Blankfein »

I don't know why you insist that the top earners have it so easy.

You are completely wrong. People who earn income on capital gains have it easy, yes.

But for everyone else, the burden is insane. Our corporate tax rate is 2nd highest in the world. Yes, the world.

You need to stop saying top earners because its false, it's a talking point and it makes you appear foolish.

You need to separate the differences between top earners and people who earn money by not working. There's a huge difference.

Everyone else has to purchase equipment or reinvest in their companies heavily to reduce their tax liabilities. If it weren't for that, this economy would be fucked. F u c k e d.

It's the only reason car companies are still alive, tractor companies, airplane companies, machinery companies, pipe companies, etc etc.

Without those write offs, that new ford truck every 2-3 years assembled here by an American wouldn't get sold.

Now the motherfucks that make money on their [dad's trust fund] money- yeah, that's fucking easy street.

Combined, my state and federal tax on the corp are almost near 48%

Then I get a paycheck that's taxed twice again.

How do I have it easy?
Last edited by Lloyd Blankfein on Sat Oct 05, 2013 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by soulsurfer »

I believe the stereo type goes both ways. As LB pointed out there are varying degrees in each person's stance on politics/social issues.

As a voting Republican that has most of his friends sitting on the other isle, we seem to be able to work together for the sake of our community's poor. The main difference is some of my compadre's look to the government for help while I do most of it via the private sector.
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

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Lloyd Blankfein wrote:I don't know why you insist that the top earners have it so easy.

You are completely wrong. People who earn income on capital gains have it easy, yes.

But for everyone else, the burden is insane. Our corporate tax rate is 2nd highest in the world. Yes, the world.

You need to stop saying top earners because its false, it's a talking point and it makes you appear foolish.

You need to separate the differences between top earners and people who earn money by not working. There's a huge difference.

Everyone else has to purchase equipment or reinvest in their companies heavily to reduce their tax liabilities. If it weren't for that, this economy would be fucked. F u c k e d.

It's the only reason car companies are still alive, tractor companies, airplane companies, machinery companies, pipe companies, etc etc.

Without those write offs, that new ford truck every 2-3 years assembled here by an American wouldn't get sold.

Now the motherfucks that make money on their [dad's trust fund] money- yeah, that's fucking easy street.

Combined, my state and federal tax on the corp are almost near 48%

Then I get a paycheck that's taxed twice again.

How do I have it easy?


I agree almost completely. That's been my rant for years. Why should a waitress get taxed more on her tips and wages than some asshole like Mitt Romney?

Corporations shouldn't pay income tax IMO.
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by Lloyd Blankfein »

Shit is gnarly as far as how little you get nailed on returns on your capital.

It's kind of a barrier to entry. Total pain in the nutbag to get to the point you have enough capital to freely lend it, and when you do, you don't pay shit on it.

The game is almost rigged to aid those that grew up in a family with money. How the hell does one get to that poin of having 3-4 million cleared in the bank to lend out on ventures when you're paying half of it in taxes if you earned it from the ground up. Impossible.

Dads cut you a 4mil check- life is easy.
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

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Lloyd Blankfein wrote:Shit is gnarly as far as how little you get nailed on returns on your capital.

It's kind of a barrier to entry. Total pain in the nutbag to get to the point you have enough capital to freely lend it, and when you do, you don't pay shit on it.

The game is almost rigged to aid those that grew up in a family with money. How the hell does one get to that poin of having 3-4 million cleared in the bank to lend out on ventures when you're paying half of it in taxes if you earned it from the ground up. Impossible.

Dads cut you a 4mil check- life is easy.


It's a rather exclusive club and they'd rather not have just anyone able to join.
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

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There is enough downward mobility, you don't really need to worry about the super-rich. Too many divorces and too much stupid crap to buy means they will eventually spend it all. You read about it in the news all the time, some early 20th century multimillionaire passes it down and by 2013 most of the family is broke and fighting over the scraps that are left.

I think the basic conservative argument is that by allowing the system to reward hard work, more goods and services get delivered to more people than if you have a bunch of eggheads in government trying to keep things "fair". It's not, "I've got mine, screw you!" but "What systems actually succeed in producing wealth and general prosperity?" Besides, any country where they try wealth redistribution it always ends up with the elites taking everything, so "fair" really isn't "fair" in practice. :horse:

If you look at history and the way America did things and in general, it's worked pretty well. It's not a perfect system but it is worth conserving most elements of it, though I personally am not opposed to tweaking things around the edges. I mean, employer-based health care is kind of goofy, if you think about it. :freak: :nono: I only wish they had come up with a simpler bipartisan bill and not railroaded it through the day before Christmas without any of them reading it. But that's just me. :nerd:
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by madryan »

Wayne wrote:There is enough downward mobility, you don't really need to worry about the super-rich. Too many divorces and too much stupid crap to buy means they will eventually spend it all. You read about it in the news all the time, some early 20th century multimillionaire passes it down and by 2013 most of the family is broke and fighting over the scraps that are left.

I think the basic conservative argument is that by allowing the system to reward hard work, more goods and services get delivered to more people than if you have a bunch of eggheads in government trying to keep things "fair". It's not, "I've got mine, screw you!" but "What systems actually succeed in producing wealth and general prosperity?" Besides, any country where they try wealth redistribution it always ends up with the elites taking everything, so "fair" really isn't "fair" in practice. :horse:

If you look at history and the way America did things and in general, it's worked pretty well. It's not a perfect system but it is worth conserving most elements of it, though I personally am not opposed to tweaking things around the edges. I mean, employer-based health care is kind of goofy, if you think about it. :freak: :nono: I only wish they had come up with a simpler bipartisan bill and not railroaded it through the day before Christmas without any of them reading it. But that's just me. :nerd:


If you actually study this stuff, as in the bleeding heart sociology stuff, this simply isn't the case. There's a critical mass which Lloyd alluded to at which point you can pretty much hire a competent manager, write them a check, and then jet off to someplace warm and live off the dividends and other forms of sheltered income.

There is however a serious problem with upward mobility in our society. We're almost a caste society now and it's getting worse. This is due to a whole host of reasons which include generations of failed education, falling wages for everyone but the top 5% or so, tax and fiscal policy which helps the top earners but pretty much hinders everyone else, and of course the horrible economy. The sad fact is if you work for wages, or even a half decent salary, you'll never get to the point where you can afford to take advantage of the sort of perks that the top 5% or so get to utilize.

If you're unlucky enough to be born poor, into a poor neighborhood, especially if you're a minority, etc. you've got several serious strikes against you from the start. Not that it can't happen. Anything can happen, but it most likely won't.

You make a great point that if you look at the way America did things in the past, it worked out really well. This is true, but you've gotta look back to when the middle class was doing well. Back post WWII when top tax rates were really high, and people could easily attain enough education to get good jobs. Now it's the other way around.
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

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Like I said before, we had a serious manufacturing base then.

You could literally screw doors onto a maytag dryer in a plant in Fullerton CA and buy a house, a car and go on 2 vacations a year. Wages were good, a union had your back and life was good.

Something like isn't even close enough to the picture to even include such a scenario within modern discussions.

Now a days, minorities receive preferential treatment; they get admitted into college just for being able to breath, student loans and assistance are the same way.

Maybe being a minority isn't exactly a blessing but in a state like CA there is no disadvantage. If anything, it's an advantage so there's no excuse for someone in those shoes to fail anymore.

Now, when we're talking about the upper crust, race doesn't play into that at all. A Mexican gardener is just as fucked as I am as far as chances and odds at getting there.

Does that stop my efforts? No. I strive to be rich as fuck every day I'm awake. That's the 'greed' I have. To make a shit load of money and help every person I know and every person that helped me on the way. That's my goal, professionally anyways.
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Noah
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by Noah »

madryan wrote:If you actually study this stuff, as in the bleeding heart sociology stuff, this simply isn't the case. There's a critical mass which Lloyd alluded to at which point you can pretty much hire a competent manager, write them a check, and then jet off to someplace warm and live off the dividends and other forms of sheltered income.


I didn't mean the millionaire loses all his money. I meant that it seldom makes it more than a few generations, so there is little point resenting the children of these people. They will find ways to put the dollars back into circulation on their own.
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madryan
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by madryan »

Wayne wrote:
madryan wrote:If you actually study this stuff, as in the bleeding heart sociology stuff, this simply isn't the case. There's a critical mass which Lloyd alluded to at which point you can pretty much hire a competent manager, write them a check, and then jet off to someplace warm and live off the dividends and other forms of sheltered income.


I didn't mean the millionaire loses all his money. I meant that it seldom makes it more than a few generations, so there is little point resenting the children of these people. They will find ways to put the dollars back into circulation on their own.


But I don't resent anyone who's successful. I'm pissed at the rigged system that keeps the rest of us from attaining our own piece of the pie.
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Noah
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by Noah »

madryan wrote:But I don't resent anyone who's successful. I'm pissed at the rigged system that keeps the rest of us from attaining our own piece of the pie.


You guys sound pretty resentful towards trust fund babies. You've said dad cuts them a check, they are holding the rest of us back, they don't want us in the club, they're racists, etc.

I'm saying you've set up a straw man. We don't have a multi-generational upper crust in the United States. If anything, this happens more in Europe and other parts of the world.

Even if it were true, and we did have a significant chunk of our population living off investment income from inheritance money, that still doesn't address the argument that capitalism makes everyone more prosperous than any other system. Hate the rich is just a smokescreen for liberals to screw everybody and enrich themselves. Look at how they raise the sales tax whenever they can. That's one of the most regressive taxes there is. Yes, they'll hand back a few goodies, but most of the money will never make its way back to the people they took it from.

This Dems vs. Reps dance has been going on for decades and the tax code really needs to be rewritten to reward earned income more. I agree with that. At one point recently we had a Democratic House, Senate, and President and instead of doing tax reform they burned all their political capital on health care. Great.
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TurboPablo
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by TurboPablo »

That reads too much like a rant.

But, I do agree there is a constantly hateful vibe that emanates from a certain portion of the conservatives movement. I don't believe it's the whole movement, or even the majority. I figure the moderate Repubs/Conservatives are overrun by Wingnuts right now. So they can't honestly speak their own mind without the threat of reprisal from their own people and party. Along with the potential for derision from the other side of the aisle. I know politics has always been that way. But it seems so much more extreme than any point in my life that I can remember. When Newt and and Pat showed up in the mid 90s', I thought that was epically insane. Seems liberal by today's standards.

For the life of me, I still can't figure out why none of the progressives on either side of the aisle haven't formed a group/party, broken off right after a election, and gone their own way. Done properly, a few smart, sensible people could hold most of the power by marginalizing both sides to the point of true humiliation.

That's when honest debate and compromise will happen. When there is no other alternative

Of course, the longer repubs hold out, the more this benefits them. They may get slaughtered in the next election. But all they are doing is becoming martyrs to their movement. Thus Galvinizing it.

This is essentially Conservative Kamikaze Jihad.
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madryan
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by madryan »

Wayne wrote:
madryan wrote:But I don't resent anyone who's successful. I'm pissed at the rigged system that keeps the rest of us from attaining our own piece of the pie.


You guys sound pretty resentful towards trust fund babies. You've said dad cuts them a check, they are holding the rest of us back, they don't want us in the club, they're racists, etc.

I'm saying you've set up a straw man. We don't have a multi-generational upper crust in the United States. If anything, this happens more in Europe and other parts of the world.

Even if it were true, and we did have a significant chunk of our population living off investment income from inheritance money, that still doesn't address the argument that capitalism makes everyone more prosperous than any other system. Hate the rich is just a smokescreen for liberals to screw everybody and enrich themselves. Look at how they raise the sales tax whenever they can. That's one of the most regressive taxes there is. Yes, they'll hand back a few goodies, but most of the money will never make its way back to the people they took it from.

This Dems vs. Reps dance has been going on for decades and the tax code really needs to be rewritten to reward earned income more. I agree with that. At one point recently we had a Democratic House, Senate, and President and instead of doing tax reform they burned all their political capital on health care. Great.


There's a very good reason for that. Our healthcare system is costing us arguably as much as the War in Iraq was, and it's only really covering about a quarter of our population. By that I mean, while technically, "everyone" can go to the ER and get "coverage" a much smaller percentage have a plan that's comprehensive enough that a major health problem wouldn't wipe them out. The health system in our country was and is a huge problem which was bleeding money from our economy at alarming rates and needed to be addressed.

To be fair, the Dems tried for almost two years to get a bipartisan bill drafted and the Republicans refused to even come to the table to talk about it. So, at the last minute, when they knew they were going to lose the supermajority they drafted and passed something. Can you really blame them?

I'd be interested to see what, if any correlation exists between more liberal states and sales/consumption taxes. I'm in a very liberal state in many ways and we have none. As a progressive I understand that they're ridiculously regressive but I also understand them from the economics side which is you get revenue from many more facets of your economy, including professions which typically fly under the radar like drug dealing and under the table legal stuff. Until you look at how they're structured, you can't really make a sweeping statement about how progressive/regressive a particular consumption tax is. If it's just taxing luxury items it's not regressive at all.
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madryan
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by madryan »

soulsurfer wrote:clicky-clicky


Couple of things...

I'd be interested in seeing hard data. A bunch of my family lives in the bay area and they're stuck in this same situation.

Buuuuut...

If the argument that the ACA is bad because upper income earners, which these days is the upper middle class, are getting hit for extra, when millions more at the lower end are actually getting coverage, where before they just paid out money for coverage that didn't really cover anything, unless you had something like a heart attack or were hit by a bus or some such. "Catastrophic" coverage, which did you no good for staying healthy, but would sorta keep you from going bankrupt in the event you were shot or something. Course, if you got cancer the insurance company would just drop you and all those premiums would be for naught.

So there's been some progress, even if it's not exactly what I, as a nutty liberal would have wanted. Personally, the idea that we pay for healthcare out of pocket is as nutty as the idea that we'd have to pay for police or fire out of pocket.

Here's a very interesting video about what is fundamentally wrong with our country on an economic level.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM[/video]
soulsurfer

Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by soulsurfer »

for some reason I can't hear audio on youtube ? (not just your vid, but any youtube audio) Everything else is fine.

because I can't hear the audio, just the written stuff, i'm not sure what 'they' mean by wealth distribution.
(depending on which meaning they have, I may or may not be offended ;0)

If you had one dollar. You earned it. It's yours.Would you want a strong man to take it from you? your only dollar? would it be ok if he let you keep .20 of it? saying that the rest is going to 4 other ppl?

Now 5 ppl have .20 of your dollar. Now no one can afford to buy a loaf of bread let-a-lone insurance. but it's somehow fair.

the principle doesn't change just because it's someone else's dollar or the dollar amounts vary.
the 'fundamental', the unchanging truth, the bottom line is; you earned your dollar. it's yours. If you want to give it away for good, awesome. If you want to keep it to snort dog shit that is fine too. In both cases
it's your money to do as you wish. to live foolishly. to live selfishly. to live generously. whatever you like.

It's not money that is the issue. Nor is it societal corruption. governmental waste. a poverty mentality, linked to entitlement. It's not greed either.
Those are all symptoms of an identity crisis.

Just think about it. If you want to have what others have, you have to be who they are and do what they do. Fine if that IS who you are. If not, you will only devalue what you do have or acquire. Always wanting more or something new. "I want to have what he has" ...but now that I have it I'm still not happy. I must need more...or something new.

On the other hand, there are those that see a need but can't help on their own. So they see the 'fix' that others may have and thru' politics, laws or peer pressure etc. they force the 'fix' to meet the 'need', not realizing that they hurt one person to help another.
Good if the 'fix' is freely given. Not good if the 'fix' is forcibly taken.

I know of one very wealthy person that has a heart of gold. He had two brothers die because of drugs. One committed suicide, the other OD'd.
My friend vowed to do everything in his power to not let that happen to anyone else. He now runs the largest and most influential anti-drug campaign in the US and is making efforts abroad as well.
He makes his money to do good. It's his money. He can do what he likes. He chooses to do good.

If that money was taken from him to do 'other good' things, I know (have read 1000's of emails-literally) that many children would be lost to drug abuse.

Most 'rich' ppl have good plans for their money. plans to do good to the community. More often than not, the government becomes a hindrance to the community because of its interference, rather than a benefit.
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Lloyd Blankfein
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by Lloyd Blankfein »

I just wanna know why Obama gives himself, the politicians and corporations exemptions while I have to eat this pile of dogshit healthcare bill.

I thought liberals were all for equality, fairness. Doesn't seem fair to me when the rich corporations and ruling politicians get a free pass and me, a working man doesn't. Thoughts madryan? Why aren't liberals in an absolute uproar over this?

If bush gave exemptions to oil corps and his fellow politician buddies the airwaves would be on fire. Obama does it: nothing.

Also, this affordable care act will cost me $300+ a month. Where as blue cross was a little over $200. My deductible was lower on blue cross as well.


What the fuck is that? I'm young (the bill was designed for us, remember?) and Im getting hosed.
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sleewell
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Re: Interesting Blog Post... Input from Conservatives sough

Post by sleewell »

^ the design of the law is for the young and healthy to pay for the old and sick. but yeah anyone being declared exempt from it is total bullshit bc the point they are trying to make is that as a whole we are better off if everyone is on the exchange.



to the OP, i feel like there is a huge range for both convertatives and liberals. especially right now in the conservative party; its seems like the tea party members are very different than traditional republicans and equally different from those who are more moderate.

saying all conservatives feel this or all liberals believe that is overall pretty foolish.
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