I almost don't want to live in America anymore...

[Lloyd Blankfein]

I don't understand the problem with paying a janitor $15 an hour plus benefits.

I don't think we should be so quick to abandon our own citizens due to cutthroat manual labor from under the table workers. When these janitors lose the ability to contribute to the economy, we end up supporting them through welfare/unemployment so an illegal worker can make $5 per hour and pay no tax.

It's extremely short sighted.

Im not disagreeing with you. I'm merely stating that while I'm sure these illegals are working for nothing under the table, that hasn't been my experience. They won't show up out here unless they're earning a wage that is good. Anything less than 9-10/hr. they'll stay at home. Maybe for them that's the break-even of their benefits, I don't know.

The illegal issue can be solved by one thing; the consumer. The consumer wants to pay nothing, you have to find a way to get your product to nothing. Thankfully, my product commands normal prices which is why the labor is so expensive. We can afford it.

[Lloyd Blankfein]

the problem we are running into is that many of the new jobs being created are extremely low income, non full-time or temporary positions with no benefits. so it almost encourages people to suck the govt teat and is also driving up the cost of health care bc all people have for health care is the ER. there are so many assistance programs that you can live decently by not working or maybe work some side job under the table for extra money so you can have flat screens and iphones.

i dont hate on rich people for being rich but the wealth gap is widening and there are very alarming issues. even though they find loop holes in the tax system they still pay an enormous % of the taxes. its odd. they complain about people leeching off the govt yet by the policies they are emplimenting within their companies they are making the problems worse not better soley for the bottom line near term profit margin. most have no idea what it means to be poor or be hungry and think all it takes is pulling up your boot straps.

That's the big $10 question.

I doubt manufacturing will ever return to this country and that's where a majority of your middle class incomes are derived. It's just too damn expensive to build something here anymore. Labor aside, the insurance, taxes, compliance, etc. It's ridiculous.


But to fix it and become competitive, we'd have to sink to third world country levels of pay/living.

And America needs to find a way of putting out great products again. We tried to compete by building shitting products to save money and really all it did was introduce an expensive shittier product than the competition.

[rear naked]

Im pretty sure that the broad consensus among economists is that immigration has a net positive effect on wages. Immigrants don't just take ur jerbs, they demand jerbs too...such that the net effect is an increase in the standard of living...so....

[madryan]

the problem we are running into is that many of the new jobs being created are extremely low income, non full-time or temporary positions with no benefits. so it almost encourages people to suck the govt teat and is also driving up the cost of health care bc all people have for health care is the ER. there are so many assistance programs that you can live decently by not working or maybe work some side job under the table for extra money so you can have flat screens and iphones.

i dont hate on rich people for being rich but the wealth gap is widening and there are very alarming issues. even though they find loop holes in the tax system they still pay an enormous % of the taxes. its odd. they complain about people leeching off the govt yet by the policies they are emplimenting within their companies they are making the problems worse not better soley for the bottom line near term profit margin. most have no idea what it means to be poor or be hungry and think all it takes is pulling up your boot straps.

That's the big $10 question.

I doubt manufacturing will ever return to this country and that's where a majority of your middle class incomes are derived. It's just too damn expensive to build something here anymore. Labor aside, the insurance, taxes, compliance, etc. It's ridiculous.


But to fix it and become competitive, we'd have to sink to third world country levels of pay/living.

And America needs to find a way of putting out great products again. We tried to compete by building shitting products to save money and really all it did was introduce an expensive shittier product than the competition.

Actually, we're the leading builder of Honda cars and BMW and several other foreign manufacturers build their cars here too. The US car companies moved their plants across the river to Canada because of the free healthcare and fucked the US workers years ago, or just opened plants in Mexico.

We have serious problems with structural unemployment, that is, the jobs people once had aren't going to come back because the entire industry has permanently shit the bed. We should be spending as a nation on education for people so they can get re-trained and do something different but unfortunately, even that's being cut in the name of austerity.

It's a mess.

[Dave]

Im pretty sure that the broad consensus among economists is that immigration has a net positive effect on wages. Immigrants don't just take ur jerbs, they demand jerbs too...such that the net effect is an increase in the standard of living...so....

Legal or illegal immigration?

Taking a job that was above the table and paying taxes and converting it to cash under the table.

I have no idea, and just wondering.



It's hard to factor in the illegal immigration aspect since... There's not a whole lot of data to support one way or the other. They're off the grid so to speak.

[madryan]

Im pretty sure that the broad consensus among economists is that immigration has a net positive effect on wages. Immigrants don't just take ur jerbs, they demand jerbs too...such that the net effect is an increase in the standard of living...so....

This...

If some guy from Guatemala is a serious threat to your job then you need to be looking at some job training or getting into a new industry.

Immigration isn't depressing wages, and it sure as hell didn't kill the construction industry. The recession and the popping of the real estate bubble did that.

[Dave]

I don't understand the problem with paying a janitor $15 an hour plus benefits.

I don't think we should be so quick to abandon our own citizens due to cutthroat manual labor from under the table workers. When these janitors lose the ability to contribute to the economy, we end up supporting them through welfare/unemployment so an illegal worker can make $5 per hour and pay no tax.

It's extremely short sighted.

Im not disagreeing with you. I'm merely stating that while I'm sure these illegals are working for nothing under the table, that hasn't been my experience. They won't show up out here unless they're earning a wage that is good. Anything less than 9-10/hr. they'll stay at home. Maybe for them that's the break-even of their benefits, I don't know.

The illegal issue can be solved by one thing; the consumer. The consumer wants to pay nothing, you have to find a way to get your product to nothing. Thankfully, my product commands normal prices which is why the labor is so expensive. We can afford it.

I agree. Funny how the people that are affected most by this are also the ones leading the charge for the lowest common denominator.


Poor people love Wal Mart because it nets them more shit for their dollar. Then they wonder why no one wants to pay them $15 an hour to work an assembly line. They're only willing to buy crap assembled or manufactured at third world labor rates. So their jobs are gone.

Consumers are stupid. That's why socialism is awesome to a point.




We no longer keep our own country employed and our ability to export has gone down the drain too. We are a country of consumers

[Lloyd Blankfein]

the problem we are running into is that many of the new jobs being created are extremely low income, non full-time or temporary positions with no benefits. so it almost encourages people to suck the govt teat and is also driving up the cost of health care bc all people have for health care is the ER. there are so many assistance programs that you can live decently by not working or maybe work some side job under the table for extra money so you can have flat screens and iphones.

i dont hate on rich people for being rich but the wealth gap is widening and there are very alarming issues. even though they find loop holes in the tax system they still pay an enormous % of the taxes. its odd. they complain about people leeching off the govt yet by the policies they are emplimenting within their companies they are making the problems worse not better soley for the bottom line near term profit margin. most have no idea what it means to be poor or be hungry and think all it takes is pulling up your boot straps.

That's the big $10 question.

I doubt manufacturing will ever return to this country and that's where a majority of your middle class incomes are derived. It's just too damn expensive to build something here anymore. Labor aside, the insurance, taxes, compliance, etc. It's ridiculous.


But to fix it and become competitive, we'd have to sink to third world country levels of pay/living.

And America needs to find a way of putting out great products again. We tried to compete by building shitting products to save money and really all it did was introduce an expensive shittier product than the competition.

Actually, we're the leading builder of Honda cars and BMW and several other foreign manufacturers build their cars here too. The US car companies moved their plants across the river to Canada because of the free healthcare and fucked the US workers years ago, or just opened plants in Mexico.

We have serious problems with structural unemployment, that is, the jobs people once had aren't going to come back because the entire industry has permanently shit the bed. We should be spending as a nation on education for people so they can get re-trained and do something different but unfortunately, even that's being cut in the name of austerity.

It's a mess.

We already spend a fuck ton of education and all it does is net starbucks employees with B.S.'s

We need incentives for those jobs to return.

In your educate everyone for free world, what jobs would magically appear? None. Just attain more student loan debt. Education isn't the answer, get off that kick now. Look at you for example, you're going to get an MBA in America and then what? Leave to Europe. Even you prove it's a lame idea.




The biggest problem I can see is how tight capital is. Every time I have to seek capital it's a dogfight- dealing with retards who have a set of rules in front of them they can't break from. My credit is perfect, my corporation's D&B is pristine, my product sells out with written contracts that specifically stating and requesting aggressive increase of supply to meet the demand- yet every banker whines and cries.

I believe people need to starting their own businesses to fill every empty hole of commerce- yet they can't because the capital is only reserved for the Jeffrey Emmelts of the world. That and people do some up with some really bad ideas of a business, but I digress.

[Dave]

Im pretty sure that the broad consensus among economists is that immigration has a net positive effect on wages. Immigrants don't just take ur jerbs, they demand jerbs too...such that the net effect is an increase in the standard of living...so....

This...

If some guy from Guatemala is a serious threat to your job then you need to be looking at some job training or getting into a new industry.

Immigration isn't depressing wages, and it sure as hell didn't kill the construction industry. The recession and the popping of the real estate bubble did that.

Hey, if you can't afford diapers then maybe you should do the same thing. Aren't you the one bitching because the government doesn't give away more resources to poor people?

Fuck that, give em some more training. They're obviously just in need of a kick in the butt.

[Reverse Entropy]

Ideally, I'd like the help for the poor and troubled people to come from private citizens devoting time and money to charity. But the simple problem with that is most of my fellow American citizens are selfish assholes who buy a lot of stupid crap instead of helping others. Our rate of charitable donation and effort is DISMAL.

One thing that I find particularly daft is that we refuse to provide education or supplies to the poor for birth control - AND we also gripe about the poor having children in large quantities that end up on welfare. If parents want to teach their kids abstinence, that's fine with me. A parent talking responsibility to their kids, that's great. But to insist that's the only thing to teach in schools about health/sex/society is pants-on-head stupid, when so many 'abstinent' educated kids end up with pregnancies. (OOPS !)

The latest hilarity is the 'technical virgin' trend, where kids only have anal sex so they're pure until marriage.

As a moderate (Lutheran) Christian myself, I'm getting pretty fed up with the evangelicals taking over politics. I have a theory that the colonial-era Puritans were persecuted in England because they were giant pain-in-everyone's-ass busybodies who wouldn't STFU.

[Dave]

Some people are just stupid and need to have janitor type jobs.



Know how many unskilled business jobs Canada grants visas for annually? 10,000.

They don't grant shit for manual labor, and working under the table for cash is unheard of.

[Lloyd Blankfein]

I don't understand the problem with paying a janitor $15 an hour plus benefits.

I don't think we should be so quick to abandon our own citizens due to cutthroat manual labor from under the table workers. When these janitors lose the ability to contribute to the economy, we end up supporting them through welfare/unemployment so an illegal worker can make $5 per hour and pay no tax.

It's extremely short sighted.

Im not disagreeing with you. I'm merely stating that while I'm sure these illegals are working for nothing under the table, that hasn't been my experience. They won't show up out here unless they're earning a wage that is good. Anything less than 9-10/hr. they'll stay at home. Maybe for them that's the break-even of their benefits, I don't know.

The illegal issue can be solved by one thing; the consumer. The consumer wants to pay nothing, you have to find a way to get your product to nothing. Thankfully, my product commands normal prices which is why the labor is so expensive. We can afford it.

I agree. Funny how the people that are affected most by this are also the ones leading the charge for the lowest common denominator.


Poor people love Wal Mart because it nets them more shit for their dollar. Then they wonder why no one wants to pay them $15 an hour to work an assembly line. They're only willing to buy crap assembled or manufactured at third world labor rates. So their jobs are gone.

Consumers are stupid. That's why socialism is awesome to a point.




We no longer keep our own country employed and our ability to export has gone down the drain too. We are a country of consumers

It's amazing because I have the exact same experience. The loudest screamers are the guys who purchase tho most foreign shit. A friend of mine is the absolute poster-boy of the America fuck yeah! clan, however his purchasing habits are in-line with the people he hates. Just bought a couple Kubota tractors (japanese), I asked him why? Case and John Deere are expensive. No shit?

I'm afraid the consumer is going to decide this outcome of this war, and if Walmart on the 1st and 15th is any barometer- it's not looking good.

I always wonder if some sort of tariff would be the answer, but the literature I read on it has very mixed opinions on the outcome and something that unknown would be stupid to implement. I have no clue how to fix the problem.

[Dave]

We are kinda stuck.

One can't regress an entire country and take away their toys. Dumb people feel entitled to their current level of shit.

[Lloyd Blankfein]

Well, another problem is there are smart people who are backing up their college degrees with hard skills. Perfect example, before I started my company I worked as a Ranch Manager on another farm. My job consisted of many duties a manual labor worker would do like Running the operations, I also had skills to weld, repair diesels and run the shop. At the same time, handle the negotiations, pricing and marketing of the crop.

I essentially took 3-4 people's jobs. I see a lot of multi-tooled people out there and its cheaper to pay one guy to do 4 jobs than it is to pay 4 guys. Jobs are shrinking due to that as well. People learning to wear multiple hats will have jobs, those that are just focused on one thing probably won't.

Most of my skills (aside from my college degree) weren't learned in a trade school- they were learned on the job. I am thankful there were men out there that gave me the chance to learn under their watch. My job history is the most mindfucked mess on the planet. Ranging from Asphalt, to Creative/Marketing with diesel repair, produce handling and even driving for a huge logistics company.

at 25/26 y/o, I think I'll be alright.

[rear naked]

Im pretty sure that the broad consensus among economists is that immigration has a net positive effect on wages. Immigrants don't just take ur jerbs, they demand jerbs too...such that the net effect is an increase in the standard of living...so....

Legal or illegal immigration?

Taking a job that was above the table and paying taxes and converting it to cash under the table.

I have no idea, and just wondering.



It's hard to factor in the illegal immigration aspect since... There's not a whole lot of data to support one way or the other. They're off the grid so to speak.

Im not sure if there is a lot of research about illegals. There might be.

Im sure the result would be the same whether or not the job is under the table cash, or on the books. More people just tends to positively effect economies.

[rear naked]

I don't understand the problem with paying a janitor $15 an hour plus benefits.

I don't think we should be so quick to abandon our own citizens due to cutthroat manual labor from under the table workers. When these janitors lose the ability to contribute to the economy, we end up supporting them through welfare/unemployment so an illegal worker can make $5 per hour and pay no tax.

It's extremely short sighted.

Im not disagreeing with you. I'm merely stating that while I'm sure these illegals are working for nothing under the table, that hasn't been my experience. They won't show up out here unless they're earning a wage that is good. Anything less than 9-10/hr. they'll stay at home. Maybe for them that's the break-even of their benefits, I don't know.

The illegal issue can be solved by one thing; the consumer. The consumer wants to pay nothing, you have to find a way to get your product to nothing. Thankfully, my product commands normal prices which is why the labor is so expensive. We can afford it.

I agree. Funny how the people that are affected most by this are also the ones leading the charge for the lowest common denominator.


Poor people love Wal Mart because it nets them more shit for their dollar. Then they wonder why no one wants to pay them $15 an hour to work an assembly line. They're only willing to buy crap assembled or manufactured at third world labor rates. So their jobs are gone.

Consumers are stupid. That's why socialism is awesome to a point.




We no longer keep our own country employed and our ability to export has gone down the drain too. We are a country of consumers

Walmart is awesome. I love how they destroys retail jobs...that is the whole point. Manufacturing doesn't need humans as much...(americans in particular)...good. That is wealth creation. Farming doesn't need 90% of people anymore either. Awesome!

[GuitarBilly]

One thing that I find particularly daft is that we refuse to provide education or supplies to the poor for birth control

That's not true. Every public school (at least here in CA) has classes and pamphlets about sex ed.

And condoms are free, either at the local clinics or through govt programs

http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/std/order_condoms.htm

This is L.A. county but I am sure there are programs like this across the country.

People end up with 5 kids in welfare because of poor choices not lack of information or resources.

[JonVengeance]

One thing that I find particularly daft is that we refuse to provide education or supplies to the poor for birth control

That's not true. Every public school (at least here in CA) has classes and pamphlets about sex ed.

And condoms are free, either at the local clinics or through govt programs

http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/std/order_condoms.htm

This is L.A. county but I am sure there are programs like this across the country.

People end up with 5 kids in welfare because of poor choices not lack of information or resources.

Pamphlets and condoms is something, but people are not well educated. I saw show on where girls thought they could douche with coke after sex to prevent pregnancy or have sex in certain positions to lessen the chances of getting pregnant.

[RIFF]

As a single parent of a kid who just got out of diapers I can relate. That shits expensive.

Literally right? Maybe harness that shit & turn it into fuel or diamonds...



Seriously though, I see big changes for the worse as time goes on. 1 step forward, 2 sideways. Law stacked upon more law, loopholes, & eventually the unscrupulous greedy bastards run it all.

[Lloyd Blankfein]

As a single parent of a kid who just got out of diapers I can relate. That shits expensive.

Literally right? Maybe harness that shit & turn it into fuel or diamonds...



Seriously though, I see big changes for the worse as time goes on. 1 step forward, 2 sideways. Law stacked upon more law, loopholes, & eventually the unscrupulous greedy bastards run it all.

Because you cant control your dick, the greedy bastards are to blame?


lol

[Lloyd Blankfein]

One thing that I find particularly daft is that we refuse to provide education or supplies to the poor for birth control

That's not true. Every public school (at least here in CA) has classes and pamphlets about sex ed.

And condoms are free, either at the local clinics or through govt programs

http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/std/order_condoms.htm

This is L.A. county but I am sure there are programs like this across the country.

People end up with 5 kids in welfare because of poor choices not lack of information or resources.

Pamphlets and condoms is something, but people are not well educated. I saw show on where girls thought they could douche with coke after sex to prevent pregnancy or have sex in certain positions to lessen the chances of getting pregnant.

The type of bitches that believe this usually drop out of school by the 9th grade- no need for expensive education because they wont be present to hear it anyways.

We got sex-ed in 6th grade, still didn't stop the bitches.

[Lloyd Blankfein]

Eventually?

Can we blame Mitt Romney for people not controlling their dicks? I want to blame him for something.


Today, I scratched my damn cowboy boot and I'm pretty sure it had to do with Mitt Romney. That rich bastard just gets to buy new boots when he scratches his. Probably takes advantage of a tax loophole and writes them off as well. Fucker. Actually, now that I think of it, I never got education on how to walk in my boots when I was in elementary school. Now, my $500 boots/life are ruined.


Do you know how expensive boots are? That shit's expensive.

[RIFF]

As a single parent of a kid who just got out of diapers I can relate. That shits expensive.

Literally right? Maybe harness that shit & turn it into fuel or diamonds...



Seriously though, I see big changes for the worse as time goes on. 1 step forward, 2 sideways. Law stacked upon more law, loopholes, & eventually the unscrupulous greedy bastards run it all.

Because you cant control your dick, the greedy bastards are to blame?


lol

lol wut , confused much?

[Lloyd Blankfein]

As a single parent of a kid who just got out of diapers I can relate. That shits expensive.

Literally right? Maybe harness that shit & turn it into fuel or diamonds...



Seriously though, I see big changes for the worse as time goes on. 1 step forward, 2 sideways. Law stacked upon more law, loopholes, & eventually the unscrupulous greedy bastards run it all.

Because you cant control your dick, the greedy bastards are to blame?


lol

lol wut , confused much?

I was trying to read when Mitt Romney came in and slapped my hands out of the way and started typing.


Greedy bastard.

[Reverse Entropy]

One thing that I find particularly daft is that we refuse to provide education or supplies to the poor for birth control

That's not true. Every public school (at least here in CA) has classes and pamphlets about sex ed.
And condoms are free, either at the local clinics or through govt programs
http://publichealth.lacounty.gov/std/order_condoms.htm
This is L.A. county but I am sure there are programs like this across the country.
People end up with 5 kids in welfare because of poor choices not lack of information or resources.

Well, that is a positive example. It doesn't apply nationwide, though. And while people in Kansas and Kentucky are free to do as they please in their state, I am also free to use them as examples opposite of the good example you gave above.

There is a significant push by lawmakers to slash funding for sex ed that isn't abstinence-only, and for eliminating or otherwise blocking any subsidy / assistance for birth control to the poorer groups. It doesn't make logical sense, but it's an anti-sex ideology, so I don't really expect it to make sense.

But it is nice to see from your example that it's not the case everywhere. Fundamentally I agree with a lot of people here that the responsibility lies ultimately with the individuals.