first world problems: got a job offer, pay is too low

[zach]

so, i'm moving to north georgia.

i interviewed for a drafting job on monday. today i was offered the job, but it pays 65% of what i want and 80% of what i've been making (i'm already underpaid).

basically, they're offering me entry level salary when i have 10+ years experience. pretty insulting, really.

what is the proper etiquette/protocol for a counteroffer? i've literally never been in this situation before, so i don't know how to proceed.

the language in the offer letter seemed to indicate that their figures are pretty firm.

wat do?

[sleewell]

everything is a negotiation, only a sucker takes the first offer. start high, cite your experience. be prepared not to accept it if it would not make sense for you and your family.

how are the cost of living comparisions?

[Dickarms]

probably nothing, but you can TRY to counter. regardless of your position, is the pay commensurate with the position? might not be about you

[sleewell]

If you say you can't take that salary, they will say "thank you for applying, there's the door". Because even though YOU aren't willing to take that salary as compensation, there are thousands of people out there that absolutely WILL, because they've been looking for a job for so long that they'll take what they can get. It's that simple. If you make a counteroffer, they won't match it.

disagree. they selected him bc they want him and not the others who applied. they probably started low and have room to move. sometimes its better to pay for the one you want and not settle for the 2nd or 3rd choice for a few dollars less. even if they reject his counter they wont just take the offer off the table.

[Meelosh]

Yeah dude, that is some fucked up advice, even if that's what ends up happening!

[indienoise]

If you say you can't take that salary, they will say "thank you for applying, there's the door". Because even though YOU aren't willing to take that salary as compensation, there are thousands of people out there that absolutely WILL, because they've been looking for a job for so long that they'll take what they can get. It's that simple. If you make a counteroffer, they won't match it.

disagree. they selected him bc they want him and not the others who applied. they probably started low and have room to move. sometimes its better to pay for the one you want and not settle for the 2nd or 3rd choice for a few dollars less. even if they reject his counter they wont just take the offer off the table.

This. He's not applying for a dishwashing or retail (sorry for bringing THAT one back up) job. They may not be willing to negotiate pay. Or they may very well be willing. Only one way to find out. I'd recommend a respectful counteroffer. That way you haven't flat out refused, but you've tested the waters.

[Dickarms]

well, its a more realistic view these days. not everything is a negotiation. in my position, ive even seen the pay charts. they are only authorized a range of salaries for each position, and the offers are near/at the top. most legitimate companies dont wheel and deal. cant take the salary? sucks. taking this guy then.

but, not knowing the firm, we cant say and the argument is pointless.

which brings me back to my original questions: are they lowballing for the position or offering a competitive salary but the position is below your experience?

[zach]

i do think i have some leverage, although i'm not sure how much.

here's the email i was sent, the offer was attached

Zach,

It was a pleasure to meet with you this week. You are a clear stand-out among the other applicants for this position and therefore I would like to offer the position to you. I have attached a position agreement which details the salary, benefits, and duties expected with this position. Please review and let me know if this acceptable. I greatly look forward to having you on the PBI team and as a part of engineering staff. Please let me know if you have any questions or need further clarification on any item in the position agreement. I will be unavailable from 11:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. today but I will be back in the office after that point. You can contact me via email, the 1-800 number below or on my company cell phone at

i think the term "clear stand-out" is significant.

i'm going to call the guy and see how firm the numbers are.

cost of living looks even if maybe a bit more there, although i'm not sure if that includes property taxes, which are hysterically high here.

[Dickarms]

clear stand out = we like you because you are overqualified.

65% of salary goal = will not come close to bridging that gap, man, im sorry. you may, MAY get 5% have it be %70 of what you want.


so, how much does that bother you? thats what you have to find out. im into drafting/modeling, i love it. if i could leave my job for a drafting or modeling position, i would take maybe a 10% pay cut and be happy.

[zach]

well, its a more realistic view these days. not everything is a negotiation. in my position, ive even seen the pay charts. they are only authorized a range of salaries for each position, and the offers are near/at the top. most legitimate companies dont wheel and deal. cant take the salary? sucks. taking this guy then.

but, not knowing the firm, we cant say and the argument is pointless.

which brings me back to my original questions: are they lowballing for the position or offering a competitive salary but the position is below your experience?

well, i called the guy. he quickly indicated that they had room to move up, but that was after i indicated that the salary offered was entry level. i told him the number that i had in mind, we'll see what happens.

i think they're lowballing. i've done every single facet of what the position requires, so i'll be able to hit the ground running while a noob would have to learn A LOT. then, once that noob learns that he's worth a lot more, he's gonna bail for a better paying gig.

part of the job is estimating, which can very easily cost a company a lot of money...it's worth paying someone a little more to keep that kind of thing from happening.

[GuitarBilly]

i do think i have some leverage, although i'm not sure how much.

here's the email i was sent, the offer was attached

Zach,

It was a pleasure to meet with you this week. You are a clear stand-out among the other applicants for this position and therefore I would like to offer the position to you. I have attached a position agreement which details the salary, benefits, and duties expected with this position. Please review and let me know if this acceptable. I greatly look forward to having you on the PBI team and as a part of engineering staff. Please let me know if you have any questions or need further clarification on any item in the position agreement. I will be unavailable from 11:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. today but I will be back in the office after that point. You can contact me via email, the 1-800 number below or on my company cell phone at

i think the term "clear stand-out" is significant.

i'm going to call the guy and see how firm the numbers are.

cost of living looks even if maybe a bit more there, although i'm not sure if that includes property taxes, which are hysterically high here.

Yeah, call him and talk to him, I mean at the VERY LEAST they should start you at what you are making now or a 5% increase or something. Offering you 80% of your current wages is pretty insulting. Call him and see what can be done, if anything. If they can't at least match your current pay, let it go, you just dodged a bullet because working for a company with this mindset sucks.

[zach]

clear stand out = we like you because you are overqualified.

65% of salary goal = will not come close to bridging that gap, man, im sorry. you may, MAY get 5% have it be %70 of what you want.


so, how much does that bother you? thats what you have to find out. im into drafting/modeling, i love it. if i could leave my job for a drafting or modeling position, i would take maybe a 10% pay cut and be happy.

look at what entry level drafting positions pay...usually about $10-12/hr around here.

it bothers me bigtime...like, it was almost insulting to see the offer. if they don't move up a good bit, i'll take the job and immediately look for something else.

i loved it too, back when i first started. now that i've done it for so long, it's pretty boring.

[GuitarBilly]

well, its a more realistic view these days. not everything is a negotiation. in my position, ive even seen the pay charts. they are only authorized a range of salaries for each position, and the offers are near/at the top. most legitimate companies dont wheel and deal. cant take the salary? sucks. taking this guy then.

but, not knowing the firm, we cant say and the argument is pointless.

which brings me back to my original questions: are they lowballing for the position or offering a competitive salary but the position is below your experience?

well, i called the guy. he quickly indicated that they had room to move up, but that was after i indicated that the salary offered was entry level. i told him the number that i had in mind, we'll see what happens.

i think they're lowballing. i've done every single facet of what the position requires, so i'll be able to hit the ground running while a noob would have to learn A LOT. then, once that noob learns that he's worth a lot more, he's gonna bail for a better paying gig.

part of the job is estimating, which can very easily cost a company a lot of money...it's worth paying someone a little more to keep that kind of thing from happening.

oh ok, I was writing my previous shit while you replied. Yeah sounds good, let's see what he says..

[zach]

Yeah, call him and talk to him, I mean at the VERY LEAST they should start you at what you are making now or a 5% increase or something. Offering you 80% of your current wages is pretty insulting. Call him and see what can be done, if anything. If they can't at least match your current pay, let it go, you just dodged a bullet because working for a company with this mindset sucks.

i think Bill was pretty much spot on...the offered sucker money hoping i'd take it "because the economy is bad and jobs are hard to find".

sometimes i think employers want to see if who they're trying to hire values themselves enough to demand more too...it's a test of character. this company being where it is, i wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.

worst case scenario is i let them pay me next to nothing while looking for something that pays a decent wage. there's HVAC work there too, so i'm covered either way.

[KCTigerChief]

i do think i have some leverage, although i'm not sure how much.

here's the email i was sent, the offer was attached

Zach,

It was a pleasure to meet with you this week. You are a clear stand-out among the other applicants for this position and therefore I would like to offer the position to you. I have attached a position agreement which details the salary, benefits, and duties expected with this position. Please review and let me know if this acceptable. I greatly look forward to having you on the PBI team and as a part of engineering staff. Please let me know if you have any questions or need further clarification on any item in the position agreement. I will be unavailable from 11:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. today but I will be back in the office after that point. You can contact me via email, the 1-800 number below or on my company cell phone at

i think the term "clear stand-out" is significant.

i'm going to call the guy and see how firm the numbers are.

cost of living looks even if maybe a bit more there, although i'm not sure if that includes property taxes, which are hysterically high here.

Yeah, call him and talk to him, I mean at the VERY LEAST they should start you at what you are making now or a 5% increase or something. Offering you 80% of your current wages is pretty insulting. Call him and see what can be done, if anything. If they can't at least match your current pay, let it go, you just dodged a bullet because working for a company with this mindset sucks.

All of this.

And also, I don't know who you work for youngblood, but when you say "most companies" don't negotiate salaries anymore, you're mistaken...Very, very mistaken...A company wants good workers, they want someone they don't have to spend money and time on training, and maybe losing the guy in the process for not being worth a shit. If you are clearly qualified to perform every part of the position, then most every company I know would be willing to work with you to get you in the door. THEY want HIM...And while he may be looking for a job, they have to lure HIM to TAKE the position. That's why most companies leave room for negotiation. They DO have salary ranges, but I've never seen an offer for someone that is on the "top" end, unless it's a 3 or 4 level skill position.

I work on the HR side of our Oracle team, and I see ranges and starting salaries, and compare them to state and country ranges for the same positions. No offense, but you are really off base with what you're saying...For skill positions anyway....Retail, fast food, etc...Then you are right on the money.

[Dickarms]

one of the biggest companies on earth, HIGHLY skilled an specialized position, and we have a very rigid pay range per grade.
seen it elsewhere as well.

[KCTigerChief]

one of the biggest companies on earth, HIGHLY skilled an specialized position, and we have a very rigid pay range per grade.
seen it elsewhere as well.

Then tell your company they are not keeping up with the Jones'

Seriously, that's cool man...I just know the research our HR team has done recently proves that your company is far from the norm.

In fact, I would not work for that company if they are that stingy, and just trying to get bodies in the seats instead of quality workers...I'd be running away with serious quickness.

[Dickarms]

good to know. ive somehow always known the grass is greener

[sleewell]

obviously a gallon of gas or groceries at the store arent really negotiable but salaries are DEF negotiable. everything in a real estate transaction is negotiable and I have gotten much better at both reading people and getting the most from each contract. its an art, most people are just afraid of confrontation so they leave money on the table which is sad.

[Dickarms]

but we also have to be realistic about how negotiable.

if a dude lowballs you at an entry level $12-15/hr, and you say "no way jose, ill do it for $22 an hr and thats final" they will apologize and show you the door.

[KCTigerChief]

but we also have to be realistic about how negotiable.

if a dude lowballs you at an entry level $12-15/hr, and you say "no way jose, ill do it for $22 an hr and thats final" they will apologize and show you the door.

I've never applied for a job where one of the first questions wasn't "what is your salary requirement?" - and if they DO lowball you, then you have every right to negotiate up to that. If they don't like that, or it isn't in the budget, they should have never wasted theirs or your time interviewing you in the first place. That question is there for a reason!

[Dickarms]

exactly this

which i why i was wondering why they were lowballing him w/ entry pay for what sounds like a middle level position

[Lloyd Blankfein]

In my experience, there are a very, v e r y select group of companies who actually want to pay their workers what their worth.

In the last 3-4 years, it has shifted to, "lets find the poorest bastard who cannot get any more down on his luck who actually has a skillset we need. Now, lets pay him nothing, because he'll take it."

Feelsgoodman

[rear naked]

In my experience, there are a very, v e r y select group of companies who actually want to pay their workers what their worth.

In the last 3-4 years, it has shifted to, "lets find the poorest bastard who cannot get any more down on his luck who actually has a skillset we need. Now, lets pay him nothing, because he'll take it."

Feelsgoodman

How do you know how much a worker is worth?

[Lloyd Blankfein]

In my experience, there are a very, v e r y select group of companies who actually want to pay their workers what their worth.

In the last 3-4 years, it has shifted to, "lets find the poorest bastard who cannot get any more down on his luck who actually has a skillset we need. Now, lets pay him nothing, because he'll take it."

Feelsgoodman

How do you know how much a worker is worth?

Ninja, I see you.

Obviously, the market decides, and the current market is well, saturated. So, the price comes down. That's the answer in a literal sense.

But in the same breath, we collectively realize a heart surgeon is worth more than $7/hr regardless of supply or demand.