WTF is going on in Canada?

[madryan]

I find the people who just outright declare shale fracking "safe" to be laughable.

It's a relatively new process. No long term studies have been done. It's essentially been rubber stamped by the EPA and other similar governmental watch dogs.

Basically, instead of erring on the side of caution, the folks in charge chose to side with the zillionaires and just run with it. Typical.

[Harvest]

In many ways it's safer than conventional production.

Used in combination with advances in horizontal/directional drilling, several wells can be tied into the same well pad, reducing the amount of surface land required for the same amount of production, and reducing the number of holes drilled through the aquifer into the shale gas formation.

Virtually all of the so-called "fracking caused" water contamination problems have nothing to do with the hydraulic fracturing process itself - they are either from poor design and/or construction of the well casing (poured in concrete after the well has been drilled and fractured already), or from improper storage and disposal of the "flowback" fluid that comes back out of the well after production - both of which can happen with conventional wells also.

And to suggest that the industry can basically just move in wherever they like, drill as much as they want and that the government doesn't care is fucking ludicrous. ONE well needs over 50000 pages of documentation before they even think about breaking ground. It's a 2-3 year planning cycle. The O&G industry is probably the most heavily regulated industry out there besides maybe the nuclear energy industry.

If any of you guys watched Gasland and ate up everything that guy said, I suggest you do your homework because he's basically full of shit.

[madryan]

In many ways it's safer than conventional production.

Used in combination with advances in horizontal/directional drilling, several wells can be tied into the same well pad, reducing the amount of surface land required for the same amount of production, and reducing the number of holes drilled through the aquifer into the shale gas formation.

Virtually all of the so-called "fracking caused" water contamination problems have nothing to do with the hydraulic fracturing process itself - they are either from poor design and/or construction of the well casing (poured in concrete after the well has been drilled and fractured already), or from improper storage and disposal of the "flowback" fluid that comes back out of the well after production - both of which can happen with conventional wells also.

And to suggest that the industry can basically just move in wherever they like, drill as much as they want and that the government doesn't care is fucking ludicrous. ONE well needs over 50000 pages of documentation before they even think about breaking ground. It's a 2-3 year planning cycle. The O&G industry is probably the most heavily regulated industry out there besides maybe the nuclear energy industry.

If any of you guys watched Gasland and ate up everything that guy said, I suggest you do your homework because he's basically full of shit.

Never seen it.

[Reverse Entropy]

In 1900 it was coal barons and Pinkertons agents as "private police". Technically legal, and in the purist capitalist sense possibly appropriate. But if we look at it objectively it was pretty selfish and abusive. A hundred and ten plus year later, it's come around again. Strangely, we're still making the same arguments.

All people are selfish - that's not inherently right or wrong. But the more powerful people tend to be more destructive, in the same proportion that they can bring prosperity. The problem is the people who get bulldozed in the name of prosperity, and who generally get rather little prosperity out of the 'progress' the more powerful are making.

I started out as a free-market capitalist, and generally libertarian. I still (vainly) believe it in principle. However I've been deliberately lied to so often, or given bullshit "justifications" by clearly incompetent "experts" that these days I simply don't believe 80% of the "business wisdom" that is lobbed at me. I've seen the results. My BS detector is pegged at MAX most of the time.

It's a damn shame such constant malfeasance by "business leaders" has me feeling like a fucking Bolshevik. It takes a lot of malice and incompetence by others to bring my philosophy to this point. The French Revolution seems a lot more understandable these days.

The excessive militarisation of police and the oppression of peaceable protest is one of the worst things happening in the free world today. I never dreamed the worst part of the Iron Curtain would end up here. It's disgusting. I thought we settled this crap in the 1960s.

[madryan]

In 1900 it was coal barons and Pinkertons agents as "private police". Technically legal, and in the purist capitalist sense possibly appropriate. But if we look at it objectively it was pretty selfish and abusive. A hundred and ten plus year later, it's come around again. Strangely, we're still making the same arguments.

All people are selfish - that's not inherently right or wrong. But the more powerful people tend to be more destructive, in the same proportion that they can bring prosperity. The problem is the people who get bulldozed in the name of prosperity, and who generally get rather little prosperity out of the 'progress' the more powerful are making.

I started out as a free-market capitalist, and generally libertarian. I still (vainly) believe it in principle. However I've been deliberately lied to so often, or given bullshit "justifications" by clearly incompetent "experts" that these days I simply don't believe 80% of the "business wisdom" that is lobbed at me. I've seen the results. My BS detector is pegged at MAX most of the time.

It's a damn shame such constant malfeasance by "business leaders" has me feeling like a fucking Bolshevik. It takes a lot of malice and incompetence by others to bring my philosophy to this point. The French Revolution seems a lot more understandable these days.

The excessive militarisation of police and the oppression of peaceable protest is one of the worst things happening in the free world today. I never dreamed the worst part of the Iron Curtain would end up here. It's disgusting. I thought we settled this crap in the 1960s.

It's just that there really are two Americas... And we're all in the wrong one.

[Pepi]

My buddy and former Squad Leader lives in Nova Scotia. He's a member of one one of the tribes which has called the area home for god only knows how long.

So they're protesting fracking up there and Canuckland calls in the RCMP who come in with dogs and guns drawn and everything.

He posted some vids up on FB of the cops going all draconian on folks who were obviously peacefully camped in a field. Drawing on one lady simply because she wouldn't put down her camera phone etc.

Then FB starts removing some of the videos.

WTF?

Yeah what about the first amendment Oh wait Probably America in 10 years

[JimmyPaeg]

From the Yahoo article you posted:

The RCMP has confirmed that more than 40 people were arrested on firearms offences and charges of uttering threats, intimidation, mischief and ignoring a court injunction.

The biggie here is the firearms. Unlike in the States, you can be arrested for simply pointing a firearm at someone here, and it's not unheard of for Canada's First Nations Peoples to have guns that are banned--stuff like FALs and AKs. Also, as the picture shows, two cop cars were set on fire. When stuff like that happens, the police are usually outnumbered and so they start arresting everyone. I would suspect that the majority of people arrested will be released or given suspended sentences.

Unfortunately, both sides have very bad records when it comes to Native protests. Riots are not uncommon, and there was one case a number of years ago of an unarmed man being shot and killed by police.

I'm not saying that the police were in the right here, but there was likely fault on both sides.

[Lloyd Blankfein]

See, in America, our non violent protests used to consist of a bunch of people handcuffing themselves together and laying down in the path to the gate.

Now, these protestors are lighting shit on fire, carrying guns, etc.

That's not peaceful, at all. Serves them right. If I had a bunch of people pointing guns and burning my property, I'd have hired goons cracking those flanneled skulls as well.

[madryan]

From the Yahoo article you posted:

The RCMP has confirmed that more than 40 people were arrested on firearms offences and charges of uttering threats, intimidation, mischief and ignoring a court injunction.

The biggie here is the firearms. Unlike in the States, you can be arrested for simply pointing a firearm at someone here, and it's not unheard of for Canada's First Nations Peoples to have guns that are banned--stuff like FALs and AKs. Also, as the picture shows, two cop cars were set on fire. When stuff like that happens, the police are usually outnumbered and so they start arresting everyone. I would suspect that the majority of people arrested will be released or given suspended sentences.

Unfortunately, both sides have very bad records when it comes to Native protests. Riots are not uncommon, and there was one case a number of years ago of an unarmed man being shot and killed by police.

I'm not saying that the police were in the right here, but there was likely fault on both sides.

From what Derek was saying they were mostly just pulling the Gandhi trick of sitting down refusing to move. I saw he posted one pic of a cop shooting someone who was cuffed with CS right in the face. People on both sides are obviously pissed.

As I mentioned, Derek was caught in the crossfire and hit with rubber bullets and beanbags from the cops. Sounds like everyone misbehaved.

[Lloyd Blankfein]

No, sounds like a bunch of trolls instigated an issue and got fucking crushed.

You are casually condoning the behavior of your law breaking friends.

[Harvest]

I think the official count is 6 RCMP vehicles were torched and assorted weapons and improvised explosives were seized. Most of the arrested got criminal mischief charges I think.

[Sasquatch]

I think the official count is 6 RCMP vehicles were torched and assorted weapons and improvised explosives were seized. Most of the arrested got criminal mischief charges I think.

well, this just aboot sums it up

[DoubleBarrel]

I find the people who just outright declare shale fracking "safe" to be laughable.

It's a relatively new process. No long term studies have been done. It's essentially been rubber stamped by the EPA and other similar governmental watch dogs.

Basically, instead of erring on the side of caution, the folks in charge chose to side with the zillionaires and just run with it. Typical.

Same people you want to run our healthcare system

[Johnny'sGotTheBlues]

I find the people who just outright declare shale fracking "safe" to be laughable.

It's a relatively new process. No long term studies have been done. It's essentially been rubber stamped by the EPA and other similar governmental watch dogs.

Basically, instead of erring on the side of caution, the folks in charge chose to side with the zillionaires and just run with it. Typical.

Fracking is safe. The process is 50 years old. It happens MILES underneath the ground. I can't think of any near surface fracking that has been done. EDIT: I just saw Harvest covered this quite well a few posts up.

Your friends down east were breaking the law.

I'm all for peaceful and legal protest. Once it becomes violent and illegal, call in the cops. The RCMP were VERY restrained in their response. No one was injured but 5 police vehicles were burned. If that would have happened in LA live bullets would have flown. I think the RCMP deserve commendation for their restraint.

[Johnny'sGotTheBlues]

I find the people who just outright declare shale fracking "safe" to be laughable.

It's a relatively new process. No long term studies have been done. It's essentially been rubber stamped by the EPA and other similar governmental watch dogs.

Basically, instead of erring on the side of caution, the folks in charge chose to side with the zillionaires and just run with it. Typical.

Same people you want to run our healthcare system

Your reply is as ill informed as the quote you were replying to.

[madryan]

I find the people who just outright declare shale fracking "safe" to be laughable.

It's a relatively new process. No long term studies have been done. It's essentially been rubber stamped by the EPA and other similar governmental watch dogs.

Basically, instead of erring on the side of caution, the folks in charge chose to side with the zillionaires and just run with it. Typical.

Fracking is safe. The process is 50 years old. It happens MILES underneath the ground. I can't think of any near surface fracking that has been done. EDIT: I just saw Harvest covered this quite well a few posts up.

Your friends down east were breaking the law.

I'm all for peaceful and legal protest. Once it becomes violent and illegal, call in the cops. The RCMP were VERY restrained in their response. No one was injured but 5 police vehicles were burned. If that would have happened in LA live bullets would have flown. I think the RCMP deserve commendation for their restraint.

I know right? Here it'd be a pitched battle and dead people and all that.

In related news...

http://www.freewoodpost.com/2013/04/04/solar-energy-plant-spill-has-tea-party-panic/

[DoubleBarrel]

I find the people who just outright declare shale fracking "safe" to be laughable.

It's a relatively new process. No long term studies have been done. It's essentially been rubber stamped by the EPA and other similar governmental watch dogs.

Basically, instead of erring on the side of caution, the folks in charge chose to side with the zillionaires and just run with it. Typical.

Same people you want to run our healthcare system

Your reply is as ill informed as the quote you were replying to.

EPA is the FED.............Obamacare is the FED

So the same people who tell you Fracking safe, are the ones who will be controlling & providing (at thier discression) your healthcare......


If they ever get the sign-up website figured out

[Harvest]

I find the people who just outright declare shale fracking "safe" to be laughable.

It's a relatively new process. No long term studies have been done. It's essentially been rubber stamped by the EPA and other similar governmental watch dogs.

Basically, instead of erring on the side of caution, the folks in charge chose to side with the zillionaires and just run with it. Typical.

Same people you want to run our healthcare system

Your reply is as ill informed as the quote you were replying to.

EPA is the FED.............Obamacare is the FED

So the same people who tell you Fracking safe, are the ones who will be controlling & providing (at thier discression) your healthcare......


If they ever get the sign-up website figured out

The EPA has nothing to do with the Federal Reserve, neither does Obamacare, except that Obamacare and the Federal Reserve both operate on the fantasy that you can print yourself a blank cheque to pay for things you can't afford.

By the way, Canada is not obliged to follow ANY ruling the EPA makes anyways- we are a different country. We do have agreements in place between Environment Canada and the EPA for certain areas like the Great Lakes, air quality along the border, etc. though.

[DoubleBarrel]

I find the people who just outright declare shale fracking "safe" to be laughable.

It's a relatively new process. No long term studies have been done. It's essentially been rubber stamped by the EPA and other similar governmental watch dogs.

Basically, instead of erring on the side of caution, the folks in charge chose to side with the zillionaires and just run with it. Typical.

Same people you want to run our healthcare system

Your reply is as ill informed as the quote you were replying to.

EPA is the FED.............Obamacare is the FED

So the same people who tell you Fracking safe, are the ones who will be controlling & providing (at thier discression) your healthcare......


If they ever get the sign-up website figured out

The EPA has nothing to do with the Federal Reserve, neither does Obamacare, except that Obamacare and the Federal Reserve both operate on the fantasy that you can print yourself a blank cheque to pay for things you can't afford.

By the way, Canada is not obliged to follow ANY ruling the EPA makes anyways- we are a different country. We do have agreements in place between Environment Canada and the EPA for certain areas like the Great Lakes, air quality along the border, etc. though.

not the federal reserve ............ The US Federal Government


You just stay up in the frozen tundra until your brain thaws....eh ?....Hozer

[Harvest]

References to the "FED" in the media refer to the Federal Reserve - Ben Bernanke and his cronies.

Saying they're the same people because one is a federal government environmental agency and one is a health care bill is still quite a stretch.

All y'all keep sipping dat sweet tea.

[DoubleBarrel]

References to the "FED" in the media refer to the Federal Reserve - Ben Bernanke and his cronies.

Saying they're the same people because one is a federal government environmental agency and one is a health care bill is still quite a stretch.

All y'all keep sipping dat sweet tea.

Context failz

Yes, when Bernake or one of the other people from the finance community talk about the "Fed" they are referring to the federal reserve. Most other times the "Fed" is the federal government.

Point is, that not only is sweet tea, delicious, but the fact that we are turning over our healthcare decisions and money to the same people who have ruined medicare, bankrupted social security, run up record deficits, bailed out big money (banks, GM, etc...). Meanwhile, they can't even manage to roll out the signup website.

[madryan]

Doublebubble thinks everything should run as smooth as it does in a Hollywood production where there are nice, two dimensional characters representing good and evil archetypes and everything gets resolved in 111min.

It's kinda cute.

[rear naked]

Yes, when Bernake or one of the other people from the finance community talk about the "Fed" they are referring to the federal reserve. Most other times the "Fed" is the federal government.

No...

[DoubleBarrel]

Doublebubble thinks everything should run as smooth as it does in a Hollywood production where there are nice, two dimensional characters representing good and evil archetypes and everything gets resolved in 111min.

It's kinda cute.

Translation of that post for my non-liberal friends

DB is dead on the money, but since I have nothing to refute his facts, I will use the old liberal trick of insults to try and divert your attention away from the real issue. See pillar # 4

[DoubleBarrel]

Yes, when Bernake or one of the other people from the finance community talk about the "Fed" they are referring to the federal reserve. Most other times the "Fed" is the federal government.

No...

Yes.

I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps, and 12 in civil service. The "Fed" was always the Federal Government, unless the discussion was about money.