Guitar Gear Forum

Murdoch wrote:Yeah, those several hours it would take to download, then install? Yeah, I'd gladly pay the extra 10 bucks if I didn't have to wait through all of that crap.

I do this regularly via steam. It's a little frustrating, sure, but it's NEVER been more than a 2 hour wait. I prefer physical media, maybe because now I'm (relatively) old and it makes me feel warm and fuzzy to have something I hold in my hand, but in all honesty digital is really the better way. You lose the disc, you're screwed - your hard drive dies, you re-download the game you purchased in digital format.

The sticking point is, with steam, for example, you purchase the game, it links the purchase to your account, you could stay in offline mode for the rest of your days and still play the game. The difference is you don't have secondhand sales of digital media. So, I guess, if you wanna get mad at Microsoft for making the means of DRM available, go ahead. But on principal, you gotta hold it against Steam too.

I just now convinced myself of that as I typed it. I guess that makes me a hypocrite as much as the next guy.

^and about the post above me, I kind of hope they DO do it that way. It makes sense that they would, since they more or less said straight out that they want the console to be responsive 24/7, and also mention that it can install games in the background. It only makes sense that you could remotely install games, given you have the proper credentials of course.

Meelosh wrote:Yes but what if instead of $60 it was $50?

As of now I can buy a $60 game, play it for a month or two, and then trade it in for $30 credit towards the next one. I wouldn't be happy with digital only unless it went down to $40-$45...but it makes sense.



Doesn't Steam also allow you to download a game before release and it just unlocks at 12:01am? That would change things.

Murdoch wrote:Not me. I wouldn't WANT a game where I didn't have a physical disc copy of the game. Why? I don't want to shell out my $60 and then have to wait a fucking eon for umpteen gigabytes of data to download, then another eon for it to install to the hard drive.

It takes me about an hour to download a full 360 game. The new box should be able to haul considerably more ass than that, especially if they've got the speed on their side. Course the new games are going to be considerably larger so...

After doing some reading, I have to agree with you guys: This whole DRM/used games thing is some of the dumbest shit I've heard in awhile. Its like they know its a bad idea but they're such greedy cocksuckers they're doing it anyways.

Schweezly wrote:
Doesn't Steam also allow you to download a game before release and it just unlocks at 12:01am? That would change things.

Yes! My brothers do this all the time. Speaking of which, we should really be building computers and telling the console companies to fuck off.

Telephant wrote:

Schweezly wrote:
Doesn't Steam also allow you to download a game before release and it just unlocks at 12:01am? That would change things.

Yes! My brothers do this all the time. Speaking of which, we should really be building computers and telling the console companies to fuck off.

I feel like that could be a benefit of the always on. That and auto updates while your sleeping, at work, etc...

I don't know...MS is being total douche nozzles but I don't think it's as bad as everyone says. And I think the lineup is better for X1 as well. PS4 will no doubt be the more hardcore gaming machine, but the X1 is MS positioning themselves for the future (maybe :lol )

I kinda like the idea of Kinect being standard...may be more likely for developers to use it, and it seems pretty high-tech. I'm still waiting for control of a melee weapon like out of Die By the Sword.

^ that's what I was thinking... by making it standard it means more people are likely to develop for it... besides, I loved going by my friend and play Wii sports... that was some good fun, so it would be cool to have games like that for the Xbox

The main thing that I'm excited about kinect bringing to the table is head tracking. I play a lot of racing games and i like to fly the jets and helos in battlefield so being able to look around would be super, super awesome. OculusRift will be loads better of course but god knows when that is going to drop.

^ damn.. you know I didn't even think about it in that way... that would be awesome

The level of immersion that can add will be immense!

Wait, but if you look to the right, you'll stop looking at the screen!

Meelosh wrote:Wait, but if you look to the right, you'll stop looking at the screen!

Yeah, it's not like your TV will move with your head

And if you barely move your head, and it spans all the way to the right, that will just be dumb as shit.

LOL MS is getting desperate!!

Nintendo announced it would be bringing E3 to its fans by teaming up with Best Buy to provide Wii U kiosks with demos of newly announced titles at select cities across North America, which we feel was definitely a good move for the company considering how poor Wii U sales have been ever since its release this past November. But leave it to Microsoft to crash Nintendo’s party to try to persuade potential Wii U customers into buying an Xbox One instead.

There have been numerous reports coming in from multiple Best Buy locations where Nintendo is holding its special E3 experience that Microsoft employees have been talking to people on line asking why they would bother buying a Wii U when the Xbox One’s release is right around the corner. One NeoGAF member even took a picture of what looks to be a Microsoft employee talking to those in line, which you can clearly see the man is wearing a Microsoft shirt. It’s unsure just how many potential or current Wii U customers were spoken to during the special E3 event, but one member of the message board said they were visited by a Microsoft representative in Culver City, California.

We know a large number of gamers have turned against Microsoft ever since they announced the Xbox One, but infiltrating Nintendo’s planned events in order to coerce potential Wii U customers into buying an Xbox One has got to be a new low for the company. We do know Microsoft recently announced “Windows Stores” would start popping up in 500 Best Buy locations, which could also be the reason why Microsoft employees were spotted at some of the Best Buy stores where Nintendo just so happened to be holding its special E3-related Wii U demo events.

Either way, considering how many public events have been ambushed by a competing company’s representatives in order to promote their own products, we certainly can see something like this happening when you factor in just how important the next generation of video games is concerned.

indienoise wrote:

Meelosh wrote:

indienoise wrote:If you have to actually download the game from cloud storage, then it's a pointless feature. If it could actually run it from cloud (a la OnLive), THAT would be a worthy feature. And I agree with what you mentioned there. Essentially they've got it working similar to the PC model now - just purchase a license key for a game you've already got installed, and you're good to go. It's more or less what they're already doing on XBLA purchasing a full game after trying the demo.

I dunno if I'd call it pointless, I think it's sensible. I wouldn't see the point of running the game remotely a la OnLive, since you don't need the new specs of a new xbox or playstation for that, and I also bet that would jack up the online fees significantly.

I don't think anyone would use it if it's a "download and install" feature. Think about it. If you're somewhere like a friend's house, who would bother spending what's likely to amount to hours downloading and installing a game (can be as large as 50GB with BDD, even compressed that's huge) just to play it once or twice? I wouldn't waste my time. In their launch presentation, they did mention they were upgrading their servers to an exponential degree, so I would hope it would be something better than that. Besides, that would represent an extra cost, but honestly the way they add advertisements to a service that I'm already paying for, I'd kind of hope they'd go the extra mile. I'm not going to make any assumptions that they WILL do something that large of scale, but it's gotta be something better to be useful. I wonder if, at the very least, the system would be able to run a game if it's not installed locally? Basically treat cloud as a second disc drive, install a few essential files to the second console and let it pull everything else from cloud? Wonder if access/read speeds would be quick enough for that to work.

Apparently you can DL some inital files, then start playing, and it will continue to dl in the background as you play. But really, how much bandwidth do they think people have!?!? Do that with a couple of games and you're already close to a lot of people's bandwidth caps. You're friend is going to be pissed at you for using up all his bandwidth and not just bringing the damned disk

Schweezly wrote:

Telephant wrote:

Schweezly wrote:
Doesn't Steam also allow you to download a game before release and it just unlocks at 12:01am? That would change things.

Yes! My brothers do this all the time. Speaking of which, we should really be building computers and telling the console companies to fuck off.

I feel like that could be a benefit of the always on. That and auto updates while your sleeping, at work, etc...

I don't know...MS is being total douche nozzles but I don't think it's as bad as everyone says. And I think the lineup is better for X1 as well. PS4 will no doubt be the more hardcore gaming machine, but the X1 is MS positioning themselves for the future (maybe :lol )

For the future no one cares about.

Here's the thing. Most of the "features" of the X1 that don't involve gaming nobody gives a shit about.

"oooh, its a DVR"

but..umm, I already have a DVR.

"Ooooh, you can control it using gestures"

umm...ok, but I have a freaking controller. could I have a 360 emulator instead?

"its the future of home entertainment"

Yeah...MS, you haven't seen the future since you took the GUI interface and tweaked it into windows. I get what you WANT to do, but instead of listening to your customers and trying to give them the future they envision, you're looking into the future YOU envision and its a lot like trying to replace things they already own with shit they don't want or need.

ovid9 wrote:

Schweezly wrote:

Telephant wrote:

Schweezly wrote:
Doesn't Steam also allow you to download a game before release and it just unlocks at 12:01am? That would change things.

Yes! My brothers do this all the time. Speaking of which, we should really be building computers and telling the console companies to fuck off.

I feel like that could be a benefit of the always on. That and auto updates while your sleeping, at work, etc...

I don't know...MS is being total douche nozzles but I don't think it's as bad as everyone says. And I think the lineup is better for X1 as well. PS4 will no doubt be the more hardcore gaming machine, but the X1 is MS positioning themselves for the future (maybe :lol )

For the future no one cares about.

Here's the thing. Most of the "features" of the X1 that don't involve gaming nobody gives a shit about.

"oooh, its a DVR"

but..umm, I already have a DVR.

"Ooooh, you can control it using gestures"

umm...ok, but I have a freaking controller. could I have a 360 emulator instead?

"its the future of home entertainment"

Yeah...MS, you haven't seen the future since you took the GUI interface and tweaked it into windows. I get what you WANT to do, but instead of listening to your customers and trying to give them the future they envision, you're looking into the future YOU envision and its a lot like trying to replace things they already own with shit they don't want or need.

I agree. I think at that point in time someone on another forum convinced me its for the future

I'm still pissed MS has more games id like...at least at launch. Also, I'm pissed Sony put that touchpad in there controller.

Schweezly wrote:I agree. I think at that point in time someone on another forum convinced me its for the future

I'm still pissed MS has more games id like...at least at launch. Also, I'm pissed Sony put that touchpad in there controller.

I totally get what MS is trying to do. But, much like windows 8, its completely hamfisted and missing the point. Instead of forcefeeding new "features" down everyone's throat, they should include the features as options.

As the early adopters, gadget friendly, and software fiddlers, figure out all the cool features, they'll make blog posts, tell friends, and spread the word of mouth all over the place about how "Oh hey, I know you knew Win 8 was fast, but did you know it could do THIS as well?"

Instead of "Yeah, Win 8 is fast, but holy fuck why did they force me to use my desktop like a fucking tablet? I don't give a shit about that I have an Ipad/Kindle Fire/Nook/Samsung whatever."

MS has some good ideas.

They just have no fucking CLUE how to introduce them to the public. A forcefed dubstep infused ad campaign will not do it if you're latest OS pisses people off because you're forcing average users to relearn shit they don't want to. Your new phones can be awesome as hell but with an app store less than 1/2 of your competition, good luck.

The whole X1 roll out is just another case in point. I'm sure the Xbox1 (which again was apparently named by a moron) will be perfectly fine. But the current limitations are stupid. You HAVE to have it log on once every 24 hours?

Why? That makes no fucking sense. It might only inconveince 3% of your users...but...there's no logical point to that.

MS is attempting to make a fully integrated environment like Apple has. But, unlike apple, at last under Jobs, their CEO has no clue how to bring it to the public. Until they change that, they're going to continue to flounder on hardware rollouts.

All of the Xbox One demos at E3 were running on Windows 7 pc's with Nvidia graphics cards. Not even Microsoft uses Windows 8! Hahaha

abouttreefitty wrote:All of the Xbox One demos at E3 were running on Windows 7 pc's with Nvidia graphics cards. Not even Microsoft uses Windows 8! Hahaha

It makes sense to stick to the platform they started the initial development on though which will have been win7 with the dev kit hardware. Why bother to change it and have to rewrite drivers and all that shit?

In other news some chap over on reddit has combed all of the press releases about all the controversial stuff floating around the net on the X1. Full article here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comment ... es_kinect/

And a copy/paste for those who can't be arsed


I'm sick of seeing all the misinformation going around the gaming subreddits. It's really frustrating to see people furiously hating the X1 without having all, if any, of the details. I'll try and break this down for you guys so here we go.
To start off, the Xbox One will allow you to buy games at launch through digital download or through discs by going to a retail store.

USED GAMES
One of the X1's main feature is the ability to install the disc directly to the hard drive and play it without a disk. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a feature many asked for when the feature was added to 360, but it was only to allow the game to run better.
Contrary to popular believe, the used game does exist in the X1.
"Trade-in and resell your disc-based games: Today, some gamers choose to sell their old disc-based games back for cash and credit. We designed Xbox One so game publishers can enable you to trade in your games at participating retailers. Microsoft does not charge a platform fee to retailers, publishers, or consumers for enabling transfer of these games."
What can we take away from this? Easy. If you bought a disc based game, you can sell and trade it to any participating retailer. It means that game publishers will work out deals with retailers in order for the developers and publishers to take a cut of used games sales. Microsoft will not receive any money from these transactions. If you bought a digital copy, just like any digital copy, you will not be able to do this.

FIRST PARTY GAMES
"In our role as a game publisher, Microsoft Studios will enable you to give your games to friends or trade in your Xbox One games at participating retailers. Third party publishers may opt in or out of supporting game resale and may set up business terms or transfer fees with retailers. Microsoft does not receive any compensation as part of this. In addition, third party publishers can enable you to give games to friends. Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners."
All first party games will be allowed to be resold and be given away (more of this below).

RENTING GAMES
"Loaning or renting games won’t be available at launch, but we are exploring the possibilities with our partners."
Microsoft and companies such as Gamefly are working on a system to make this work.

DRM--WHY?
As we saw above, you will be able install your games to your hard-drive and have your entire library available to play without putting the disc in the disc tray.
This is why the 24-hour check is required. Without this, many copies of the same game could be installed into multiple X1's and it would be absolutely crumble game sales.
The drawback to this is not being able to game offline. Microsoft has said that the final decisions to this issue have not been final. I believe if they allow you to play offline with the disc in the disc tray, this would become a non-issue.

PRIVACY
This is one of the biggest things people have been complaining about. Microsoft has already addressed the issue, but of course it fell on deaf ears. People already had their pitch forks out and had Sony on a pedestal by this point.
"You are in control of when Kinect sensing is On, Off or Paused: If you don’t want the Kinect sensor on while playing games or enjoying your entertainment, you can pause Kinect. To turn off your Xbox One, just say “Xbox Off.” When the system is off, it’s only listening for the single voice command -- “Xbox On,” and you can even turn that feature off too. Some apps and games may require Kinect functionality to operate, so you’ll need to turn it back on for these experiences."
As I've stated before, you will have the control to everything that the Kinect has to offer. If you don't want it to hear you? You can do that. If you don't want it to see you, you can do that. Don't want it to listen for the "Xbox On" while it's off, you can also do that.
If you want to learn more about the Kinect's privacy settings, you can click this link: Kinect Privacy

XBOX ONE- A GAME OF CIRCLES
Now onto the other things. As some of us know, you will be able to have a "circle" of friends, 10 people to be exact, that will be able to access your game library from anywhere (in the same region, I'm assuming..still not clear about this) at anytime (as long as you or someone else in your circle isn't playing it). This is of course how things work now, two of your friends can't play the game at the same time from one disc on two separate consoles.
This is a feature that is absolutely wonderful, but the people raging about it had not heard about it before.
"Give your family access to your entire games library anytime, anywhere: Xbox One will enable new forms of access for families. Up to ten members of your family can log in and play from your shared games library on any Xbox One. Just like today, a family member can play your copy of Forza Motorsport at a friend’s house. Only now, they will see not just Forza, but all of your shared games. You can always play your games, and any one of your family members can be playing from your shared library at a given time."
I absolutely love this feature. For example, my cousin is 200 miles away when he's away to college and I've let him borrow LA Noire and Dead Rising. I've yet to receive those games from him. With this feature, we don't have to be close in order for him to borrow any of my games! It's crazy as to how so many people dismissed this feature because it's a big jump forward in digital technology. No longer will my friends or family have to be close to me in order for them borrow one of my games.
Important Update: New information has risen relating to this feature. You +1 friend from your circle can play the same game at the same time. Others can still play from your other library selection.

Another Important Update: DLC will be shareable through your circle. Your friend will be able to play all of the DLC that you buy. They will not need to purchase their own DLC for the game they're playing from your Xbox One.


GIVING AWAY GAMES
Do you have a game that you will no longer play? Your friend can still play it off of your Xbox (if they're in your circle). What if they're not? As long as they have been in your friend's list for 30 days, you can give a game away to your friend, free of charge! This can only be done once per copy.
Disclaimer: Microsoft has left it up to the publishers to decide whether or not you will be able to give your games to your friend. As stated above, first party games will allow you to this.

AFTER-THOUGHT: ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
The big change in the Xbox Live system is the feature to allow all users on one console to have gold by just one user having it. For example, if I have Xbox Live Gold and my brothers also use the same console, they will also be able to use all the perks of a Gold account. They will have access to all the games on the console even if it was installed through my account.
In short, one Gold account subscription per Xbox.

AFTER-THOUGHT OF AN AFTER-THOUGHT, A KINECT STORY
Disclaimer, the following is information that I believe. I have no source for some, just my opinion.
The main question I'm seeing is why the Kinect is being forced upon us. This is what I believe is the case in relation to this matter.
The past version of the Kinect was not the big leap in innovating that Microsoft wanted. It is a powerful machine, but many developers were not making games for it. The games that were being made specifically for the Kinect we really not that great. They didn't appeal to many gamers as they were soft and childish. This wasn't what Microsoft was looking for from developers.
Why weren't developers making games for the Kinect? Was it because they couldn't?

A CHANGE OF MARKETS
If a developer made a game for the Kinect, their market instantly became much smaller. Why? Not everyone has a Kinect. As of February 2013, the Kinect has sold an estimated 24 million units. This does not mean that these units have been sold to individual customers, but to retailers. Which means that there are Kinects in the shelves or warehouses that will never reach the individual customer. In comparison, the 360 has sold an estimated 77.2 million units, again not all sold to invidual customers, but it's safe to assume that there a lot more 360's in the hand of an individual customer than there is Kinects. In an instant, your market shrinks to about 31% of the possible market. Keep in mind, this number will change depending on how many units of each product have been sold to each consumer.
With that information given to you, what I believe is happening is simple. Microsoft is shipping a Kinect with every console because like this, if you own an Xbox One--you will aso own a Kinect. With this, I'm thinking Microsoft is ensuring the developers that the market is out there! In this move, Microsoft want the developers to explore the possibilities of the Kinect. They want newer innovations as they believe they've made a product with enormous potential. Why do you believe they were shoving the Kinect down everyone's throat last E3? They wanted to expand their market.
Just think of everything that can be developed for the Kinect. For example, Dead Rising 3 will have a feature where it will listen outside of the game through the Kinect. If you make a loud sound while playing, the zombies will hear you and they will come after you. This is the kind of thing Microsoft is looking for with the Kinect, innovation.
As to why it can't be disconnected, that I'm not sure. Maybe it's for the same thing? I can't expand further on this.

I like your post. I imagined that the furious people were kids, teens, and young adults; tech-savvy but not exactly the wisest bunch of folk

Zozobra wrote:The thing with console sales is that they (generally) lose money on the console and then get it back though licensing so its feasible that the X1 could be more profitable even if sells less units.

I think I read somewhere that neither company has gone with this model this time around, basically because it's lunacy. They might not be making much on the consoles, but they'd be at least not wanting to take a huge hit for years like they have done previously.

indienoise wrote:

Zozobra wrote:Just had an interesting discussion about the PS4 and DRM. Basically if you read between the lines all Sony have really said is that they wont be enforcing DRM at a system level. Pubs could still use a pass system much like they do now and you're no better off. Just a thought.

publishers have already been doing it to an extent. EA & Ubisoft already link the ability to access multiplayer to your gamertag. So if you buy the game used, you can play single player all you want...but you gotta pay them to get online. As much as I hate it, I don't begrudge them on that, so long as they use the additional revenue to keep their online services top-notch (looking at you, Ubisoft - epic fail). It's an understandable tactic. But just not being able to play a game AT ALL without checking in daily? Look how well that sort of thing worked out for Diablo and SimCity.

Yep, as has already been said here. My copy of The Last of Us just bought last weekend came with a code to unlock some online stuff (no idea what as I haven't even looked). If a publisher wants their XB1 and PS4 releases uniform on the DRM side of things, there's nothing to stop them locking down the whole PS4 game and not just the online or extra stuff or whatever, to match what's on the XB1 release. If anything, I'd expect they'd be doing that.

Telephant wrote:

Murdoch wrote:I was sort of hoping it would suck, so I wouldn't have to spend the money on it. It's being compared favorably to Cormac McCarthy's "The Road", though...so yeah, I'm going to have to spend the money on it.

I've never read the book but the movie adaptation is super depressing!

If you liked the movie, you should read the book. From memory, coz I haven't seen it since it first came out, I thought the movie felt a bit rushed (in terms of pace, not production quality). Which, for The Road, is a pretty big thing really.

Zozobra wrote:The main thing that I'm excited about kinect bringing to the table is head tracking. I play a lot of racing games and i like to fly the jets and helos in battlefield so being able to look around would be super, super awesome. OculusRift will be loads better of course but god knows when that is going to drop.

No. Unless your screen is on some ultra-quick moving rig to move it with your head, it's fairly retarded. Are you turning your head to one side but keeping your eyes on the centre of the screen? Also, it's just different turning/tilting your head while viewing real life compared to doing the same while looking at an image on a flat screen.

What would be better is something like the big concave screen they have on the Red Bull F1 simulator. Screw head tracking, look to the left and you're actually looking to the left. But that of course is hardly something Sony or MS can sort out for us.

I imagine it will work like trackIR on the pc which uses proportional movement if it's implemented.