Guitar Gear Forum

clipless bumper wrote:At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

Big business pushed it to maximize their profits, government allowed it and the Chinese took the money (for a multitude of reasons (beyond the obvious)). And here we are.

JiveTurkey wrote:

clipless bumper wrote:At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

Big business pushed it to maximize their profits, government allowed it and the Chinese took the money (for a multitude of reasons (beyond the obvious)). And here we are.

Yes - my only point is that government should not have promoted it, or even allowed it - they should have actively discouraged/prevented it.

clipless bumper wrote:

JiveTurkey wrote:

clipless bumper wrote:At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

Big business pushed it to maximize their profits, government allowed it and the Chinese took the money (for a multitude of reasons (beyond the obvious)). And here we are.

Yes - my only point is that government should not have promoted it, or even allowed it - they should have actively discouraged/prevented it.

sure sounds like a lot of regulation tho.


shouldn't the states just handle it? my understanding is that the feds are just back ups.

clipless bumper wrote:

JiveTurkey wrote:

clipless bumper wrote:At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

Big business pushed it to maximize their profits, government allowed it and the Chinese took the money (for a multitude of reasons (beyond the obvious)). And here we are.

Yes - my only point is that government should not have promoted it, or even allowed it - they should have actively discouraged/prevented it.

I was agreeing with you

clipless bumper wrote:Yes - my only point is that government should not have promoted it, or even allowed it - they should have actively discouraged/prevented it.

Why would they when they wanted to maximize profits for kick-backs and potential post political careers. Our government officials have been all about the profit for the big boys for a very long time at this point. You can't think that any of them would have any interest in anything that would not boost potential profits. And this is universal in America. Ain't no side, party, or political practitioner that isn't guilty on this one.

sleewell wrote:

clipless bumper wrote:

JiveTurkey wrote:

clipless bumper wrote:At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

Big business pushed it to maximize their profits, government allowed it and the Chinese took the money (for a multitude of reasons (beyond the obvious)). And here we are.

Yes - my only point is that government should not have promoted it, or even allowed it - they should have actively discouraged/prevented it.

sure sounds like a lot of regulation tho.


shouldn't the states just handle it? my understanding is the that feds are just back ups.

Ignoring the sarcasm and veiled politics in that statement, I'll just answer on face value.

The feds handle/regulate international trade - and yes, some regulation is required at the national level.

GuitarBilly wrote:

K-Bizzle wrote:I agree Billy but this is the result of 30 years of outsourcing and offshoring by corporate America.

Not a Trump supporter in the least but it’s one of the few places I think he’s correct on. We should be making things here and right now we’re seeing exactly why.

I agree but I don't see it a political or government issue. It's a mentality issue. I've been working in large corporations for almost half of my life now and I've seen a LOT of outsourcing/offshoring. Not a single one of them was started by the govt or by the Chinese or whatever... every single time the idea came from an executive board consisting exclusively of obscenely well paid born/raised Americans trying to find ways to increase their profit margins/bonuses/stock value with complete disregard to the ones "below" them or the long term effects in their own country's economy.

***1776*** wrote:Yuppp


Foreign investment in China accumulated rapidly in the 1980s and 1990s (2nd only to USA) and we were told that would be great addition to the WTO and trade etc in the early 2000s. We would get more access to their markets etc but they also put in place high barriers and tariffs and didnt quite live up to their end of the bargain. Factor in they have stolen intellectual property as well along with releasing 3 fucking pandemics in 15 years and we need to get off their chain supply list ASAP (At very minimum cut it dramatically)


They have taken advantage of us for 30 years (Both Reps and Dem administrations) at least the current administration has pushed back harder against the commie govt and thats a start

It's not a start at all. Push back on what? No one is holding a gun to the head of these American CEOs to send a call center to India or a production line to China, they are happy to do it on their own volition. Yes, we need US manufacturing but this not an "administration" issue as much as it is a corporate mentality issue.

The Chinese just took what we gave away. I can blame the Chinese for a lot of things, but our outsourcing/offshoring is very much an American issue.

the jist of the post was the chinese govt and its history of BS, not the administration which has publicly talked about it, we know they take advantage of us

Admitting them to the WTO in 2001 was supposed to help end this nonsense and make china "more honest" if there is such a thing. I agree with you that the next step is with business and bringing home some manufacturing back to the states, we said this a while ago in this thread with drugs and producing them here again. I think its smart and will make for good PR but is that enough?

Time will tell

clipless bumper wrote:At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

there's no govt reward for outsourcing. That is a myth.

The real reward is replacing someone that makes 15/hr with someone who makes 10/day. That's the real attraction.

Meanwhile, resource waste at the top is absurd. I work for a corporate travel company so I see executive expense accounts often. Even on a VP/Director level, these folks can spend a call center's worker yearly salary on a single business trip. First class flight, $1k/night suites, expensive dinners, you name it. Not to mention actual compensations, bonuses etc are through the roof..

The notion that corporations "can't afford" to keep production in the USA is the biggest BS ever. They absolutely can, but costs would have to be reduced somewhere closer to the top and there is no executive board in this country that wants to even consider that.

fretless wrote:

sleewell wrote:we def need less people alive. traffic has been awesome.

anyone seen any good movies? we watched a remake of dr suess book on sunday that was pretty good.

if only there was a way to control the population

Check out the exceptional work of the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. They've happily sterilized many Africans with their vaccines.

That appears to be a very old rumor that has several times been proven false.

linthat22 wrote:
Check out the exceptional work of the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. They've happily sterilized many Africans with their vaccines.

Yeah because life expectancy and overall health in Africa was awesome before vaccines.

It was truly a joy to be Ethiopian until the Microsoft guy fucked it all up.

GuitarBilly wrote:

linthat22 wrote:
Check out the exceptional work of the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. They've happily sterilized many Africans with their vaccines.

Yeah because life expectancy and overall health in Africa was awesome before vaccines.

It was truly a joy to be Ethiopian until the Microsoft guy fucked it all up.

I've never understood the conspiracy theories surrounding them. Everything I've seen shows that they are donating significant wealth towards health and poverty issues. Others might choose different causes (or countries of focus), but their efforts seem genuine to me. Few others are donating at that level...

IndyWS6 wrote:

GuitarBilly wrote:

linthat22 wrote:
Check out the exceptional work of the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. They've happily sterilized many Africans with their vaccines.

Yeah because life expectancy and overall health in Africa was awesome before vaccines.

It was truly a joy to be Ethiopian until the Microsoft guy fucked it all up.

I've never understood the conspiracy theories surrounding them. Everything I've seen shows that they are donating significant wealth towards health and poverty issues. Others might choose different causes (or countries of focus), but their efforts seem genuine to me. Few others are donating at that level...

Linthat is a QAnon guy. He has said as much in the past.

TurboPablo wrote:

IndyWS6 wrote:

GuitarBilly wrote:

linthat22 wrote:
Check out the exceptional work of the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. They've happily sterilized many Africans with their vaccines.

Yeah because life expectancy and overall health in Africa was awesome before vaccines.

It was truly a joy to be Ethiopian until the Microsoft guy fucked it all up.

I've never understood the conspiracy theories surrounding them. Everything I've seen shows that they are donating significant wealth towards health and poverty issues. Others might choose different causes (or countries of focus), but their efforts seem genuine to me. Few others are donating at that level...

Linthat is a QAnon guy. He has said as much in the past.

Doesn't mean anything and nothing has been proven false, so what's wrong with following Qanon?

*edit* respecting Billy's wish of keeping on topic.

IndyWS6 wrote:

GuitarBilly wrote:

linthat22 wrote:
Check out the exceptional work of the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. They've happily sterilized many Africans with their vaccines.

Yeah because life expectancy and overall health in Africa was awesome before vaccines.

It was truly a joy to be Ethiopian until the Microsoft guy fucked it all up.

I've never understood the conspiracy theories surrounding them. Everything I've seen shows that they are donating significant wealth towards health and poverty issues. Others might choose different causes (or countries of focus), but their efforts seem genuine to me. Few others are donating at that level...

Yeah goes to show you can give away a billion dollars and someone will still find a way to call you an asshole lol

Anyway, that's a huge tangent, let's go back to rona talk.

GuitarBilly wrote:

clipless bumper wrote:At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

there's no govt reward for outsourcing. That is a myth.

The real reward is replacing someone that makes 15/hr with someone who makes 10/day. That's the real attraction.

Meanwhile, resource waste at the top is absurd. I work for a corporate travel company so I see executive expense accounts often. Even on a VP/Director level, these folks can spend a call center's worker yearly salary on a single business trip. First class flight, $1k/night suites, expensive dinners, you name it. Not to mention actual compensations, bonuses etc are through the roof..

The notion that corporations "can't afford" to keep production in the USA is the biggest BS ever. They absolutely can, but costs would have to be reduced somewhere closer to the top and there is no executive board in this country that wants to even consider that.

You actually just dismantled my next post on the subject before I even posted it. I was going to make a comment about the fiduciary duty of executives to share holders and competition but that doesn't really hold up well against the kind of excess you've just described.

Ultimately I'm sure there's plenty of middle ground to be found. I just think as individuals we need to care more about MIA when purchasing if possible but also being careful not to reward poor quality (also a factor to why certain industries left).

Related to both that subject and this thread more broadly after I began training BJJ a little over a year ago I found out about the only USA company making BJJ gis called Origin. Heard they were good quality so I bought one. It was such good quality I ended up getting a second one as well as some workout gear. Their reputation grew them and then they came out with a whole variety of products including jeans and boots both of which I own. While not cheap they're not too much more expensive (depending on what you're comparing to) than the made over seas varieties and yet their quality is so outstanding that I do not expect to have to buy another pair of jeans for years (I'm lucky if I get a year out of a pair).

ANYWAY in relation to the thread what they ended up doing in the face of COVID is an example of exactly why we need manufacturing here. They pivoted almost immediately went from rapid prototyping of masks into converting multiple lines into making masks (and face shields). They've been documenting the entire process on Instagram stories and its enough to bring a patriotic tear to your eye.

While I know no one is disagreeing with me on the topic I guess its just a positive example of what can be done when you've got a company with both the manufacturing and the supply chain all within the US.

if you are spreading false conspiracy theories about bill gates chances are 100% that you are in a cult.

Just one more Bill Gates. FUCKER ripped off the mouse design from XEROX

New reporting today that the virus was in California earlier than previously believed , which supports a few of my theories

rig talk in a meme lol.

K-Bizzle wrote:

GuitarBilly wrote:

clipless bumper wrote:At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

there's no govt reward for outsourcing. That is a myth.

The real reward is replacing someone that makes 15/hr with someone who makes 10/day. That's the real attraction.

Meanwhile, resource waste at the top is absurd. I work for a corporate travel company so I see executive expense accounts often. Even on a VP/Director level, these folks can spend a call center's worker yearly salary on a single business trip. First class flight, $1k/night suites, expensive dinners, you name it. Not to mention actual compensations, bonuses etc are through the roof..

The notion that corporations "can't afford" to keep production in the USA is the biggest BS ever. They absolutely can, but costs would have to be reduced somewhere closer to the top and there is no executive board in this country that wants to even consider that.

You actually just dismantled my next post on the subject before I even posted it. I was going to make a comment about the fiduciary duty of executives to share holders and competition but that doesn't really hold up well against the kind of excess you've just described.

Ultimately I'm sure there's plenty of middle ground to be found. I just think as individuals we need to care more about MIA when purchasing if possible but also being careful not to reward poor quality (also a factor to why certain industries left).

Related to both that subject and this thread more broadly after I began training BJJ a little over a year ago I found out about the only USA company making BJJ gis called Origin. Heard they were good quality so I bought one. It was such good quality I ended up getting a second one as well as some workout gear. Their reputation grew them and then they came out with a whole variety of products including jeans and boots both of which I own. While not cheap they're not too much more expensive (depending on what you're comparing to) than the made over seas varieties and yet their quality is so outstanding that I do not expect to have to buy another pair of jeans for years (I'm lucky if I get a year out of a pair).

ANYWAY in relation to the thread what they ended up doing in the face of COVID is an example of exactly why we need manufacturing here. They pivoted almost immediately went from rapid prototyping of masks into converting multiple lines into making masks (and face shields). They've been documenting the entire process on Instagram stories and its enough to bring a patriotic tear to your eye.

While I know no one is disagreeing with me on the topic I guess its just a positive example of what can be done when you've got a company with both the manufacturing and the supply chain all within the US.

Yeah I am very familiar with Origin and that's a good example. There are a lot of examples of competitive US manufacturing in the guitar industry too. It has nothing to do with govt incentives or lack thereof. The real issue is corporate's America mindset.

We love to look at our phones and tablets and think we're living in the future but in fact we're still living in the rear end of the 20th century, since the vast majority of people in positions of power in the public and private sectors are still people with a mid-century upbringing and mentality.
Think about where we were at this point in the last century (1920s) and compare it to where we got a few decades later (1940s, 50s and beyond). This will happen again in this century but it takes time because it's not only the technology that determines it, there is a human aspect to it as well. In other words, the old needs to die off first.

I think we will see a return of manufacturing to this country later on this century, but not as a job creator at all. On the contrary, at some point, the level and cost of automation will be at zero/near zero manpower making the cost difference between running production here or in China negligible, so you might as well run it here. It will also change how employment and income are perceived and there will be several paradigm shifts that will need to happen in a direction that is not quite clear yet, since right now we are in that weird phase where we are using new tech to do things the old way. But that will end eventually and then we can see what this century is really going to be like.

My long time friend who introduced me to Alex Jones at 18, reptilians/David Icke at 22, and Qanon a couple years ago has been going all over with different theories lately and its been entertaining to watch.
Bill Gates, 5G, China preparing a direct military and/or cyber attack on the US, the military preparing for martial law in cities, this being a deep state conspiracy to discredit Trump, etc, etc, ETC.

Needless to say I never argue with him, I just ask him questions just to get an insight into the minds of these people. Last time we talked he was trying to get me into Scientology.

GuitarBilly wrote:

K-Bizzle wrote:

GuitarBilly wrote:

clipless bumper wrote:At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

there's no govt reward for outsourcing. That is a myth.

The real reward is replacing someone that makes 15/hr with someone who makes 10/day. That's the real attraction.

Meanwhile, resource waste at the top is absurd. I work for a corporate travel company so I see executive expense accounts often. Even on a VP/Director level, these folks can spend a call center's worker yearly salary on a single business trip. First class flight, $1k/night suites, expensive dinners, you name it. Not to mention actual compensations, bonuses etc are through the roof..

The notion that corporations "can't afford" to keep production in the USA is the biggest BS ever. They absolutely can, but costs would have to be reduced somewhere closer to the top and there is no executive board in this country that wants to even consider that.

You actually just dismantled my next post on the subject before I even posted it. I was going to make a comment about the fiduciary duty of executives to share holders and competition but that doesn't really hold up well against the kind of excess you've just described.

Ultimately I'm sure there's plenty of middle ground to be found. I just think as individuals we need to care more about MIA when purchasing if possible but also being careful not to reward poor quality (also a factor to why certain industries left).

Related to both that subject and this thread more broadly after I began training BJJ a little over a year ago I found out about the only USA company making BJJ gis called Origin. Heard they were good quality so I bought one. It was such good quality I ended up getting a second one as well as some workout gear. Their reputation grew them and then they came out with a whole variety of products including jeans and boots both of which I own. While not cheap they're not too much more expensive (depending on what you're comparing to) than the made over seas varieties and yet their quality is so outstanding that I do not expect to have to buy another pair of jeans for years (I'm lucky if I get a year out of a pair).

ANYWAY in relation to the thread what they ended up doing in the face of COVID is an example of exactly why we need manufacturing here. They pivoted almost immediately went from rapid prototyping of masks into converting multiple lines into making masks (and face shields). They've been documenting the entire process on Instagram stories and its enough to bring a patriotic tear to your eye.

While I know no one is disagreeing with me on the topic I guess its just a positive example of what can be done when you've got a company with both the manufacturing and the supply chain all within the US.

Yeah I am very familiar with Origin and that's a good example. There are a lot of examples of competitive US manufacturing in the guitar industry too. It has nothing to do with govt incentives or lack thereof. The real issue is corporate's America mindset.

We love to look at our phones and tablets and think we're living in the future but in fact we're still living in the rear end of the 20th century, since the vast majority of people in positions of power in the public and private sectors are still people with a mid-century upbringing and mentality.
Think about where we were at this point in the last century (1920s) and compare it to where we got a few decades later (1940s, 50s and beyond). his will happen again in this century but it takes time because it's not only the technology that determines it, there is a human aspect to it as well. In other words, the old needs to die off first.

I think we will see a return of manufacturing to this country later on this century, but not as a job creator at all. On the contrary, at some point, the level and cost of automation will be at zero/near zero manpower making the cost difference between running production here or in China negligible, so you might as well run it here. It will also change how employment and income are perceived and there will be several paradigm shifts that will need to happen in a direction that is not quite clear yet, since right now we are in that weird phase where we are using new tech to do things the old way. But that will end eventually and then we can see what this century is really going to be like.

I agree with most of this - and it's a topic that deserves it's own 20-page thread - but one of the biggest reasons that manufacturing moved is us. A lot of people that scream "America First" and despise "Made in China" products are the same people that rush to WalMart to buy items for the lowest possible price. I understand household economics and I save money when possible. It's common sense. But it's also hypocritical to denounce manufacturing in foreign countries and then bitch about the cost of American made products. There are a number of reasons why it can cost more to manufacture goods in the USA (wages, benefits, environmental regulations, etc.). Corporate and shareholder greed certainly factor in, but there are a lot of moving parts and the price that we are willing to pay plays a huge role. I'm not calling anyone out here - just making a blanket statement...

My question is could we even make computers, monitors, smart phones here? I’m thinking we don’t have the raw materials available to do so, but maybe I’m wrong. I’d be more than happy to pay a little more for US products. Personally I think we need to tell China to fuck off.