Coronavirus - WTH is going on?

[JiveTurkey]

At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

there's no govt reward for outsourcing. That is a myth.

The real reward is replacing someone that makes 15/hr with someone who makes 10/day. That's the real attraction.

Meanwhile, resource waste at the top is absurd. I work for a corporate travel company so I see executive expense accounts often. Even on a VP/Director level, these folks can spend a call center's worker yearly salary on a single business trip. First class flight, $1k/night suites, expensive dinners, you name it. Not to mention actual compensations, bonuses etc are through the roof..

The notion that corporations "can't afford" to keep production in the USA is the biggest BS ever. They absolutely can, but costs would have to be reduced somewhere closer to the top and there is no executive board in this country that wants to even consider that.

You actually just dismantled my next post on the subject before I even posted it. I was going to make a comment about the fiduciary duty of executives to share holders and competition but that doesn't really hold up well against the kind of excess you've just described.

Ultimately I'm sure there's plenty of middle ground to be found. I just think as individuals we need to care more about MIA when purchasing if possible but also being careful not to reward poor quality (also a factor to why certain industries left).

Related to both that subject and this thread more broadly after I began training BJJ a little over a year ago I found out about the only USA company making BJJ gis called Origin. Heard they were good quality so I bought one. It was such good quality I ended up getting a second one as well as some workout gear. Their reputation grew them and then they came out with a whole variety of products including jeans and boots both of which I own. While not cheap they're not too much more expensive (depending on what you're comparing to) than the made over seas varieties and yet their quality is so outstanding that I do not expect to have to buy another pair of jeans for years (I'm lucky if I get a year out of a pair).

ANYWAY in relation to the thread what they ended up doing in the face of COVID is an example of exactly why we need manufacturing here. They pivoted almost immediately went from rapid prototyping of masks into converting multiple lines into making masks (and face shields). They've been documenting the entire process on Instagram stories and its enough to bring a patriotic tear to your eye.

While I know no one is disagreeing with me on the topic I guess its just a positive example of what can be done when you've got a company with both the manufacturing and the supply chain all within the US.

Yeah I am very familiar with Origin and that's a good example. There are a lot of examples of competitive US manufacturing in the guitar industry too. It has nothing to do with govt incentives or lack thereof. The real issue is corporate's America mindset.

We love to look at our phones and tablets and think we're living in the future but in fact we're still living in the rear end of the 20th century, since the vast majority of people in positions of power in the public and private sectors are still people with a mid-century upbringing and mentality.
Think about where we were at this point in the last century (1920s) and compare it to where we got a few decades later (1940s, 50s and beyond). his will happen again in this century but it takes time because it's not only the technology that determines it, there is a human aspect to it as well. In other words, the old needs to die off first.

I think we will see a return of manufacturing to this country later on this century, but not as a job creator at all. On the contrary, at some point, the level and cost of automation will be at zero/near zero manpower making the cost difference between running production here or in China negligible, so you might as well run it here. It will also change how employment and income are perceived and there will be several paradigm shifts that will need to happen in a direction that is not quite clear yet, since right now we are in that weird phase where we are using new tech to do things the old way. But that will end eventually and then we can see what this century is really going to be like.

I agree with most of this - and it's a topic that deserves it's own 20-page thread - but one of the biggest reasons that manufacturing moved is us. A lot of people that scream "America First" and despise "Made in China" products are the same people that rush to WalMart to buy items for the lowest possible price. I understand household economics and I save money when possible. It's common sense. But it's also hypocritical to denounce manufacturing in foreign countries and then bitch about the cost of American made products. There are a number of reasons why it can cost more to manufacture goods in the USA (wages, benefits, environmental regulations, etc.). Corporate and shareholder greed certainly factor in, but there are a lot of moving parts and the price that we are willing to pay plays a huge role. I'm not calling anyone out here - just making a blanket statement...

This discussion (even at it's current depth) is self-admittedly above my intellectual paygrade. But is a very fascinating one, nonetheless. I don't know what, if anything will happen; in regards to post COVID manufacturing (and people making concerted efforts to go out of their way to purchase goods from places other than China). I've seen where people are talking about bringing class action lawsuits against the Chinese government. Whether it's warranted or not; it makes for a interesting discussion.

[K-Bizzle]

Yeah I am very familiar with Origin and that's a good example. There are a lot of examples of competitive US manufacturing in the guitar industry too. It has nothing to do with govt incentives or lack thereof. The real issue is corporate's America mindset.

We love to look at our phones and tablets and think we're living in the future but in fact we're still living in the rear end of the 20th century, since the vast majority of people in positions of power in the public and private sectors are still people with a mid-century upbringing and mentality.
Think about where we were at this point in the last century (1920s) and compare it to where we got a few decades later (1940s, 50s and beyond). This will happen again in this century but it takes time because it's not only the technology that determines it, there is a human aspect to it as well. In other words, the old needs to die off first.

I think we will see a return of manufacturing to this country later on this century, but not as a job creator at all. On the contrary, at some point, the level and cost of automation will be at zero/near zero manpower making the cost difference between running production here or in China negligible, so you might as well run it here. It will also change how employment and income are perceived and there will be several paradigm shifts that will need to happen in a direction that is not quite clear yet, since right now we are in that weird phase where we are using new tech to do things the old way. But that will end eventually and then we can see what this century is really going to be like.

Hey you don't have to tell me man. I've been a part of automation applications where we're reshoring work that was once outsourced.

An example:
Company A used to make an agricultural product in the US, the team they employed to make said product was ~15 people and for the sake of the discussion we'll say their weekly output was 1000 units.
Company A outsourced this work to China and saved a lot of money. The weekly output (1000 units) and manufacturing style was still the same as before just now done using Chinese labor.
This goes on for years then the newly booming marijuana industry greatly increased the need for this product.

Company A invests ~$500k in automated equipment from a company I worked for and brought the production 100% back into the US.
With this equipment they produce 5000 units per week and employ 4 people to do it (this includes a supervisor and an engineer/technician role).

So yeah while making things here is great you're 100% right that it will not be a source of new job growth for the most part aside from the STEM jobs.
I mean just look at this example, before - 15 low skill workers, 1 supervisor at 1000 units per week. Now 2 laborers, 1 supervisor, and 1 high skilled worker at 5X the total output.

This is just one example just to give those unfamiliar an idea of exactly what you're talking about.
Yes we need to make things here but the whole "bring the jobs back" narrative is a false one. Those jobs didn't just leave to China, they left and will continue to leave to robots and automation.

[sleewell]

My question is could we even make computers, monitors, smart phones here? I’m thinking we don’t have the raw materials available to do so, but maybe I’m wrong. I’d be more than happy to pay a little more for US products. Personally I think we need to tell China to fuck off.

the factories that make iphones had to install netting to catch workers attempting suicide.


its not like the prices would go up a dollar or two. to pay people a wage where they don't want to jump off the building the prices would skyrocket.

[EndTime]

A little update on my situation. Since my whole household has had the old Corona...

First let me say I’m not a Bill Gates conspirator, but if you ask me, he might be a Wolf in sheep’s clothing. At the least, I’m keeping my eyes on what happens with his involvement. He hasn’t been an “on the level” guy from the beginning if we are being honest. He’s stolen many ideas to make his dough. But whatver, I’m just saying I don’t fully trust his intentions, but I also don’t think he’s got some global elite level “politics” he’s enacting either. But he isn’t Mr. nice guy trying to help the world either. I don’t believe anyway. There is sumthin shady. Pure gut feel at this point. So innocent until proven guilty!

But back to the health issues that at this point we have to assume is Covid related. Since it’s being shared by more than one person in my house. But quickly let me back up, I may have singled out a more likely case of when we got infected. I thought it was daughter bf who is staying with us and his father had it and he also tested positive. But before that, our mechanic, who’s now been on a respirator for almost a month!! He was a great mechanic, honest prices, but for being only 7-8 years older than me he looked in his 60s.. so not a healthy guy. My wife was in there one time where he was coughing like a diseased mule! Don’t know what that means but my wife was in there during this time and she said he was coughing like crazy the entire time she was In there. This was right before he was hospitalized and even said he thought he might have it. So I believe prolly she brought it in from him. He’s actually been transferred to one of the bigger hospitals in the City for further care. So this got him pretty good.

Anywho, lately BOTH my wife and I have been experience fairly severe low back pain. Which I’ve now seem to center on what would likely be sciatic nerve type pain. A few days ago, I was in so much pain where my legs were hurting so bad. I couldn’t even bend over to touch my toes without that nerve pain shooting thru the roof! My old lady has been complaining of the same low back pain for weeks, and it’s in the exact same spot. And idk, as soon as my pain came on, I could tell this wasn’t actually a physical back pain, but just something unusual.

Also we both have some sort of rash. Not bad, not super itchy, but some definitely tender spots. My daughter bf has been complaining of feeling hot, and my wife said he is super hot to the touch but has no fever.. So yeah, idk. Just weird stuff.

I’ve seen that they are kinda linking recovered patients with this nerve type pain and for ME my guess is it’s the sciatic nerve that got really flared up for some reason.

[K-Bizzle]

I agree with most of this - and it's a topic that deserves it's own 20-page thread - but one of the biggest reasons that manufacturing moved is us. A lot of people that scream "America First" and despise "Made in China" products are the same people that rush to WalMart to buy items for the lowest possible price. I understand household economics and I save money when possible. It's common sense. But it's also hypocritical to denounce manufacturing in foreign countries and then bitch about the cost of American made products. There are a number of reasons why it can cost more to manufacture goods in the USA (wages, benefits, environmental regulations, etc.). Corporate and shareholder greed certainly factor in, but there are a lot of moving parts and the price that we are willing to pay plays a huge role. I'm not calling anyone out here - just making a blanket statement...

You're not wrong.
My anecdote about my purchases from Origin don't include that I can afford paying $100 per pair of jeans. This wasn't always the case for me and during that time it was whatever I could get for $20-40.
If thats not within your means what choice does a person have?

Personally this also does come down to gross consumerism that needs to be let go of.
When I compare the spending habits of my parents its amazing. My parents have 3 cars and a boat. You go into their house and there are a variety of device chargers everywhere you look. There are ipads, laptops, kindles, blue tooth headphones, stupid little handheld games everywhere. Their kitchen is stuffed to the brim with stuff they don't need nor use. In fact their entire house is filled with things that fall into that category.

When going to Walmart and buying stuff is part of your lifestyle this is the predictable result of the lives of not just my parents but almost the entire demographic of where I'm from.
So while many people are buying cheap because of "need" I'd wager most folks could live on much much less than they think they can.

[sleewell]

lots of meat packing plants are closing. it really doesn't sound like they took this seriously.

prices are going to go up if they have it on the shelves at all.

[GuitarBilly]

I agree with most of this - and it's a topic that deserves it's own 20-page thread - but one of the biggest reasons that manufacturing moved is us. A lot of people that scream "America First" and despise "Made in China" products are the same people that rush to WalMart to buy items for the lowest possible price. I understand household economics and I save money when possible. It's common sense. But it's also hypocritical to denounce manufacturing in foreign countries and then bitch about the cost of American made products. There are a number of reasons why it can cost more to manufacture goods in the USA (wages, benefits, environmental regulations, etc.). Corporate and shareholder greed certainly factor in, but there are a lot of moving parts and the price that we are willing to pay plays a huge role. I'm not calling anyone out here - just making a blanket statement...

sure, but that's a chicken vs egg situation. There is always consumer pressure to drive down prices but it's not like people were not buying TVs (for example) when they were made here.
But a big part of what made US products less competitive is a swollen top. If you look at say 60s-70s when US manufacturing was common, the CEO to worker pay ratio was around 20 to 1, today is 300 to 1. Adjusting this to even a 50:1 ratio for today's market would allow a company to allocate a lot more funds to hiring at the production/service level in the US with zero changes in the bottom line while keeping the top well compensated. But the prevailing mentality is reduce the costs at the bottom and increase the compensation at the top accordingly. So it's payroll shift more than it is a reduction. A lot of outsourcing could be avoided simply by adjusting corporate waste at the top.

Like I said, I work for a corporate travel company so I see this first hand. VP needs to be in a business meeting the next 2 days? That's a first class flight, 5-star hotel for 2 nights, limo service, upscale dinners and room service etc... those 2 days just cost the company $5k or more for something that could have been done for free with 2 phone calls and this is repeated several times a month and no one bats an eye at it. Six-figure expense accounts are common at executive level. That's before compensation even kicks in.
But god forbid someone wants raise that call center's worker pay from 12 to 15 an hour! Can't afford that! And actually, there's this company in India that can do it for 300/month per head so let's hire them.
That's the real issue with outsourcing. It's not the government and it's not really the consumer. Consumer pressure does have an effect but the problem is that squeeze is being placed solely at the bottom.

[***1776***]

At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

there's no govt reward for outsourcing. That is a myth.

The real reward is replacing someone that makes 15/hr with someone who makes 10/day. That's the real attraction.

Meanwhile, resource waste at the top is absurd. I work for a corporate travel company so I see executive expense accounts often. Even on a VP/Director level, these folks can spend a call center's worker yearly salary on a single business trip. First class flight, $1k/night suites, expensive dinners, you name it. Not to mention actual compensations, bonuses etc are through the roof..

The notion that corporations "can't afford" to keep production in the USA is the biggest BS ever. They absolutely can, but costs would have to be reduced somewhere closer to the top and there is no executive board in this country that wants to even consider that.

You actually just dismantled my next post on the subject before I even posted it. I was going to make a comment about the fiduciary duty of executives to share holders and competition but that doesn't really hold up well against the kind of excess you've just described.

Ultimately I'm sure there's plenty of middle ground to be found. I just think as individuals we need to care more about MIA when purchasing if possible but also being careful not to reward poor quality (also a factor to why certain industries left).

Related to both that subject and this thread more broadly after I began training BJJ a little over a year ago I found out about the only USA company making BJJ gis called Origin. Heard they were good quality so I bought one. It was such good quality I ended up getting a second one as well as some workout gear. Their reputation grew them and then they came out with a whole variety of products including jeans and boots both of which I own. While not cheap they're not too much more expensive (depending on what you're comparing to) than the made over seas varieties and yet their quality is so outstanding that I do not expect to have to buy another pair of jeans for years (I'm lucky if I get a year out of a pair).

ANYWAY in relation to the thread what they ended up doing in the face of COVID is an example of exactly why we need manufacturing here. They pivoted almost immediately went from rapid prototyping of masks into converting multiple lines into making masks (and face shields). They've been documenting the entire process on Instagram stories and its enough to bring a patriotic tear to your eye.

While I know no one is disagreeing with me on the topic I guess its just a positive example of what can be done when you've got a company with both the manufacturing and the supply chain all within the US.

Yeah I am very familiar with Origin and that's a good example. There are a lot of examples of competitive US manufacturing in the guitar industry too. It has nothing to do with govt incentives or lack thereof. The real issue is corporate's America mindset.

We love to look at our phones and tablets and think we're living in the future but in fact we're still living in the rear end of the 20th century, since the vast majority of people in positions of power in the public and private sectors are still people with a mid-century upbringing and mentality.
Think about where we were at this point in the last century (1920s) and compare it to where we got a few decades later (1940s, 50s and beyond). his will happen again in this century but it takes time because it's not only the technology that determines it, there is a human aspect to it as well. In other words, the old needs to die off first.

I think we will see a return of manufacturing to this country later on this century, but not as a job creator at all. On the contrary, at some point, the level and cost of automation will be at zero/near zero manpower making the cost difference between running production here or in China negligible, so you might as well run it here. It will also change how employment and income are perceived and there will be several paradigm shifts that will need to happen in a direction that is not quite clear yet, since right now we are in that weird phase where we are using new tech to do things the old way. But that will end eventually and then we can see what this century is really going to be like.

I agree with most of this - and it's a topic that deserves it's own 20-page thread - but one of the biggest reasons that manufacturing moved is us. A lot of people that scream "America First" and despise "Made in China" products are the same people that rush to WalMart to buy items for the lowest possible price. I understand household economics and I save money when possible. It's common sense. But it's also hypocritical to denounce manufacturing in foreign countries and then bitch about the cost of American made products. There are a number of reasons why it can cost more to manufacture goods in the USA (wages, benefits, environmental regulations, etc.). Corporate and shareholder greed certainly factor in, but there are a lot of moving parts and the price that we are willing to pay plays a huge role. I'm not calling anyone out here - just making a blanket statement...

This discussion (even at it's current depth) is self-admittedly above my intellectual paygrade. But is a very fascinating one, nonetheless. I don't know what, if anything will happen; in regards to post COVID manufacturing (and people making concerted efforts to go out of their way to purchase goods from places other than China). I've seen where people are talking about bringing class action lawsuits against the Chinese government. Whether it's warranted or not; it makes for a interesting discussion.

I brought this up in the thread a while back, it will be tough to do but if anything it will raise the worlds "awareness? to the fiasco that is the Chinese communist goverment, but i hope that some goverments and individuals/business do on some level.

Most do realize that most of your goods are produced over there because of the labor costs (your local .99 store is nothing BUT chinese stuff) I wonder if some of that labor cost could be perhaps in the western hemisphere/country, as much as i would like to be made in "Murrica' its not going to happen because of labor laws/pay and wage scale etc. At the very minimum we should STOP ALL drug and critical equipment production over there, we can and should make that a start

It usually comes down to $ with most of this but its something we should get our hands wrapped around soon

[itchyfingers]

At face value, everything you say is true. But to K-Biz's and 1776's point - the government can do a LOT to persuade those 'independent decisions'.

Stop rewarding those companies that outsource, and start rewarding those companies that keep it 'made in the USA'.

there's no govt reward for outsourcing. That is a myth.

The real reward is replacing someone that makes 15/hr with someone who makes 10/day. That's the real attraction.

Meanwhile, resource waste at the top is absurd. I work for a corporate travel company so I see executive expense accounts often. Even on a VP/Director level, these folks can spend a call center's worker yearly salary on a single business trip. First class flight, $1k/night suites, expensive dinners, you name it. Not to mention actual compensations, bonuses etc are through the roof..

The notion that corporations "can't afford" to keep production in the USA is the biggest BS ever. They absolutely can, but costs would have to be reduced somewhere closer to the top and there is no executive board in this country that wants to even consider that.

You actually just dismantled my next post on the subject before I even posted it. I was going to make a comment about the fiduciary duty of executives to share holders and competition but that doesn't really hold up well against the kind of excess you've just described.

Ultimately I'm sure there's plenty of middle ground to be found. I just think as individuals we need to care more about MIA when purchasing if possible but also being careful not to reward poor quality (also a factor to why certain industries left).

Related to both that subject and this thread more broadly after I began training BJJ a little over a year ago I found out about the only USA company making BJJ gis called Origin. Heard they were good quality so I bought one. It was such good quality I ended up getting a second one as well as some workout gear. Their reputation grew them and then they came out with a whole variety of products including jeans and boots both of which I own. While not cheap they're not too much more expensive (depending on what you're comparing to) than the made over seas varieties and yet their quality is so outstanding that I do not expect to have to buy another pair of jeans for years (I'm lucky if I get a year out of a pair).

ANYWAY in relation to the thread what they ended up doing in the face of COVID is an example of exactly why we need manufacturing here. They pivoted almost immediately went from rapid prototyping of masks into converting multiple lines into making masks (and face shields). They've been documenting the entire process on Instagram stories and its enough to bring a patriotic tear to your eye.

While I know no one is disagreeing with me on the topic I guess its just a positive example of what can be done when you've got a company with both the manufacturing and the supply chain all within the US.

Yeah I am very familiar with Origin and that's a good example. There are a lot of examples of competitive US manufacturing in the guitar industry too. It has nothing to do with govt incentives or lack thereof. The real issue is corporate's America mindset.

We love to look at our phones and tablets and think we're living in the future but in fact we're still living in the rear end of the 20th century, since the vast majority of people in positions of power in the public and private sectors are still people with a mid-century upbringing and mentality.
Think about where we were at this point in the last century (1920s) and compare it to where we got a few decades later (1940s, 50s and beyond). his will happen again in this century but it takes time because it's not only the technology that determines it, there is a human aspect to it as well. In other words, the old needs to die off first.

I think we will see a return of manufacturing to this country later on this century, but not as a job creator at all. On the contrary, at some point, the level and cost of automation will be at zero/near zero manpower making the cost difference between running production here or in China negligible, so you might as well run it here. It will also change how employment and income are perceived and there will be several paradigm shifts that will need to happen in a direction that is not quite clear yet, since right now we are in that weird phase where we are using new tech to do things the old way. But that will end eventually and then we can see what this century is really going to be like.

I agree with most of this - and it's a topic that deserves it's own 20-page thread - but one of the biggest reasons that manufacturing moved is us. A lot of people that scream "America First" and despise "Made in China" products are the same people that rush to WalMart to buy items for the lowest possible price. I understand household economics and I save money when possible. It's common sense. But it's also hypocritical to denounce manufacturing in foreign countries and then bitch about the cost of American made products. There are a number of reasons why it can cost more to manufacture goods in the USA (wages, benefits, environmental regulations, etc.). Corporate and shareholder greed certainly factor in, but there are a lot of moving parts and the price that we are willing to pay plays a huge role. I'm not calling anyone out here - just making a blanket statement...

This discussion (even at it's current depth) is self-admittedly above my intellectual paygrade. But is a very fascinating one, nonetheless. I don't know what, if anything will happen; in regards to post COVID manufacturing (and people making concerted efforts to go out of their way to purchase goods from places other than China). I've seen where people are talking about bringing class action lawsuits against the Chinese government. Whether it's warranted or not; it makes for a interesting discussion.

It has begun.
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... s-pandemic

[Ostinato Rubato]

The world waking up to the decades long lie of China being a good faith actor in the world economy and community of nations is a damn good thing. Unfortunately it also comes with waking up the the decades long lie of consumer goods prices being as low as they have been. But then the other good news is that due to the pandemic and people spending in some cases two months restricted from their typical consuming habits, a lot of us are shrugging off not having a bunch of extra shit we don't need and are spending less money... focusing back on what matters.

May those who have found themselves a bit less asleep stay awake and not lie down for another nap once this is all over.

[IndyWS6]

I agree with most of this - and it's a topic that deserves it's own 20-page thread - but one of the biggest reasons that manufacturing moved is us. A lot of people that scream "America First" and despise "Made in China" products are the same people that rush to WalMart to buy items for the lowest possible price. I understand household economics and I save money when possible. It's common sense. But it's also hypocritical to denounce manufacturing in foreign countries and then bitch about the cost of American made products. There are a number of reasons why it can cost more to manufacture goods in the USA (wages, benefits, environmental regulations, etc.). Corporate and shareholder greed certainly factor in, but there are a lot of moving parts and the price that we are willing to pay plays a huge role. I'm not calling anyone out here - just making a blanket statement...

sure, but that's a chicken vs egg situation. There is always consumer pressure to drive down prices but it's not like people were not buying TVs (for example) when they were made here.
But a big part of what made US products less competitive is a swollen top. If you look at say 60s-70s when US manufacturing was common, the CEO to worker pay ratio was around 20 to 1, today is 300 to 1. Adjusting this to even a 50:1 ratio for today's market would allow a company to allocate a lot more funds to hiring at the production/service level in the US with zero changes in the bottom line while keeping the top well compensated. But the prevailing mentality is reduce the costs at the bottom and increase the compensation at the top accordingly. So it's payroll shift more than it is a reduction. A lot of outsourcing could be avoided simply by adjusting corporate waste at the top.

Like I said, I work for a corporate travel company so I see this first hand. VP needs to be in a business meeting the next 2 days? That's a first class flight, 5-star hotel for 2 nights, limo service, upscale dinners and room service etc... those 2 days just cost the company $5k or more for something that could have been done for free with 2 phone calls and this is repeated several times a month and no one bats an eye at it. Six-figure expense accounts are common at executive level. That's before compensation even kicks in.
But god forbid someone wants raise that call center's worker pay from 12 to 15 an hour! Can't afford that! And actually, there's this company in India that can do it for 300/month per head so let's hire them.
That's the real issue with outsourcing. It's not the government and it's not really the consumer. Consumer pressure does have an effect but the problem is that squeeze is being placed solely at the bottom.

I can't say that I disagree and there is more than a little truth to the chicken/egg argument. Executive and upper-level management salaries are ridiculous in a lot of companies. You're not wrong about travel and expense costs. I've traveled extensively through the years (750,000+ actual flight miles) and spent a significant amount of those miles in coach. To/from Asia. While watching the executives fly first-class and, occasionally private, to the same locations. I still remember the first time I went to Korea and was invited to dinner with the big wigs. I'm trying to keep daily meal costs below $75 and they burned through $2,500 for a bar tab for 10 people at one meal. It was obscene. I get that there are cultural and "business partner" expectations, but the abuse is undeniable. And, like you said, it is almost always at the expense of the worker bees. Corporate greed is certainly a big part of why we're where we are with manufacturing in this country....

[GuitarBilly]

It has begun.
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... s-pandemic

this is 100% posturing though. I doubt this lawsuit will even move forward but let's say it does and the state "wins". How do you suggest they collect the payment?

Missouri: "Hey China, court says you owe us 100 billion for sending rona, so pay the fuck up"

China: "Lol, no"

Then what?


It does make they look "tough" to ignorant voters, which is the real goal here...

[sleewell]

certainly an effective distraction/deflection tool that is for sure.

[Marc G]

It has begun.
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronaviru ... s-pandemic

this is 100% posturing though. I doubt this lawsuit will even move forward but let's say it does and the state "wins". How do you suggest they collect the payment?

Missouri: "Hey China, court says you owe us 100 billion for sending rona, so pay the fuck up"

China: "Lol, no"

Then what?


It does make they look "tough" to ignorant voters, which is the real goal here...

This seems to be a world wide deal right now... Germany and the UK, among others, have sent massive invoices to China for the outbreak.... i

[GuitarBilly]

The world waking up to the decades long lie of China being a good faith actor in the world economy and community of nations is a damn good thing.

I don't think there was a moment in modern history when the world was not aware that China is an awful actor and I doubt that a single outsourcing decision was made without this knowledge as well. The chinese govt is quite possibly the worst liar in history because everyone always knew what they're up to. These decisions were made because American businesses didn't care, not because they didn't know.

Do you think say, Nike executives don't know their shoes - which sell for about $60/pair here - are being made at sweatshops? Do you think they couldn't make a $60 pair of sneakers right here in the USA and still make quite a nice profit? Sure they could.
Their new CEO just took a $45M sign-in bonus, that's just to get the guy through the door...what if they gave the guy say a $4M welcome package instead (which is still a fuckton of money) how many US factory jobs could they afford with that 41M? and that's just a single instance, not even the tip of the iceberg... It's bullshit...

[***1776***]

The world waking up to the decades long lie of China being a good faith actor in the world economy and community of nations is a damn good thing.

I don't think there was a moment in modern history when the world was not aware that China is an awful actor and I doubt that a single outsourcing decision was made without this knowledge as well. The chinese govt is quite possibly the worst liar in history because everyone always knew what they're up to. These decisions were made because American businesses didn't care, not because they didn't know.

Do you think say, Nike executives don't know their shoes - which sell for about $60/pair here - are being made at sweatshops? Do you think they couldn't make a $60 pair of sneakers right here in the USA and still make quite a nice profit? Sure they could.
Their new CEO just took a $45M sign-in bonus, that's just to get the guy through the door...what if they gave the guy say a $4M welcome package instead (which is still a fuckton of money) how many US factory jobs could they afford with that 41M? and that's just a single instance, not even the tip of the iceberg... It's bullshit...

Yuppp

You will not find a bigger fan of capitalism then me on this site but that shit makes me cringe sometimes. I am 110% for bonuses/rewards and for hitting sales numbers or certain goals (no issues at all, in fact its a great incentive!) but i wonder what the board is doing with this type of mentality, i would be fine with a smaller bonus pf some kind but 40 million, based on what exactly?

Unless that person coming into the company REALLY has "the secret sauce" and can REALLY REALLY escalate the value of the company and being something of true value to the company i would understand that bonus a little more, BUT for a sneaker company thats already worth around 100 BILLION, i just dont know i font see it

While not illegal, it makes people scratch their heads and borderline unethical (like golden parachutes for CEO's but thats another story) it is similar to when goverment and companies get in bed together (happens all the time) and tax dollars are being wasted, etc - These are almost examples of 'crony capitalism' IMO

.

[skybluegary]

A little update on my situation. Since my whole household has had the old Corona...

First let me say I’m not a Bill Gates conspirator, but if you ask me, he might be a Wolf in sheep’s clothing. At the least, I’m keeping my eyes on what happens with his involvement. He hasn’t been an “on the level” guy from the beginning if we are being honest. He’s stolen many ideas to make his dough. But whatver, I’m just saying I don’t fully trust his intentions, but I also don’t think he’s got some global elite level “politics” he’s enacting either. But he isn’t Mr. nice guy trying to help the world either. I don’t believe anyway. There is sumthin shady. Pure gut feel at this point. So innocent until proven guilty!

But back to the health issues that at this point we have to assume is Covid related. Since it’s being shared by more than one person in my house. But quickly let me back up, I may have singled out a more likely case of when we got infected. I thought it was daughter bf who is staying with us and his father had it and he also tested positive. But before that, our mechanic, who’s now been on a respirator for almost a month!! He was a great mechanic, honest prices, but for being only 7-8 years older than me he looked in his 60s.. so not a healthy guy. My wife was in there one time where he was coughing like a diseased mule! Don’t know what that means but my wife was in there during this time and she said he was coughing like crazy the entire time she was In there. This was right before he was hospitalized and even said he thought he might have it. So I believe prolly she brought it in from him. He’s actually been transferred to one of the bigger hospitals in the City for further care. So this got him pretty good.

Anywho, lately BOTH my wife and I have been experience fairly severe low back pain. Which I’ve now seem to center on what would likely be sciatic nerve type pain. A few days ago, I was in so much pain where my legs were hurting so bad. I couldn’t even bend over to touch my toes without that nerve pain shooting thru the roof! My old lady has been complaining of the same low back pain for weeks, and it’s in the exact same spot. And idk, as soon as my pain came on, I could tell this wasn’t actually a physical back pain, but just something unusual.

Also we both have some sort of rash. Not bad, not super itchy, but some definitely tender spots. My daughter bf has been complaining of feeling hot, and my wife said he is super hot to the touch but has no fever.. So yeah, idk. Just weird stuff.

I’ve seen that they are kinda linking recovered patients with this nerve type pain and for ME my guess is it’s the sciatic nerve that got really flared up for some reason.

First off mojo for you, and your family's suffering.

This is a mad virus, it seems to be affecting different people in different ways.

I'm now at day 33, on Monday the covid centre doctor said I'm clear of the virus, and other possible complications, yet last weekend was probably the worst I've felt, struggling with breathing, and pissing with sweat even though I no longer have a temperature. Fortunately, my breathing is good again, and I'm not burning up anymore, but I've still got the headache and dizziness that's lasted over a month. The staff told me they'd had several people reporting similar issues.

On the docs advice, I'm currently doing 3 days of co-codamol and ibuprofen, rather than just the regular advised paracetamol, we'll see how that goes. All of this seems strange considering that I only had mild symptoms of the virus initially, it would appear that it's a sneaky bastard, the aftermath has been worse than the actual illness felt.

Hang in there dude.

[GuitarBilly]

Yuppp

You will not find a bigger fan of capitalism then me on this site but that shit makes me cringe sometimes. I am 110% for bonuses/rewards and for hitting sales numbers or certain goals (no issues at all, in fact its a great incentive!) but i wonder what the board is doing with this type of mentality, i would be fine with a smaller bonus pf some kind but 40 million, based on what exactly?

Unless that person coming into the company REALLY has "the secret sauce" and can REALLY REALLY escalate the value of the company and being something of true value to the company i would understand that bonus a little more, BUT for a sneaker company thats already worth around 100 BILLION, i just dont know i font see it

While not illegal, it makes people scratch their heads and borderline unethical (like golden parachutes for CEO's but thats another story) it is similar to when goverment and companies get in bed together (happens all the time) and tax dollars are being wasted, etc - These are almost examples of 'crony capitalism' IMO

.

I'm a huge fan of capitalism myself. I think the best thing the govt can do for business is stay the fuck away from it.

That's why I said I don't think this is a political issue. It's a mentality issue.

As hard as the WWI/II and the great depression were on this country, it created a breed of people that were determined to get rich and make this country the best in the world and they sure did both really well.
Problem is they are long gone now and have been replaced by a mid-century generation of self entitled fucks that have not lived through any real hardship at all and have this absurd notion that our stability is a given.

Hopefully, what this pandemic will do is break the illusion that we're safe from real crisis here and change the mindset of businesses and consumers alike to the perils of international dependence on even the most basic necessities.

This is not a govt thing, I mean that's part of it too, but it's really something that has to shift in the mindset of American society.

Honestly, I don't think this crisis alone is enough to change this. It will take a few more serious crisis, as well as a major generational change in the power structure. So like 10-20 years.

[JiveTurkey]

A little update on my situation. Since my whole household has had the old Corona...

First let me say I’m not a Bill Gates conspirator, but if you ask me, he might be a Wolf in sheep’s clothing. At the least, I’m keeping my eyes on what happens with his involvement. He hasn’t been an “on the level” guy from the beginning if we are being honest. He’s stolen many ideas to make his dough. But whatver, I’m just saying I don’t fully trust his intentions, but I also don’t think he’s got some global elite level “politics” he’s enacting either. But he isn’t Mr. nice guy trying to help the world either. I don’t believe anyway. There is sumthin shady. Pure gut feel at this point. So innocent until proven guilty!

But back to the health issues that at this point we have to assume is Covid related. Since it’s being shared by more than one person in my house. But quickly let me back up, I may have singled out a more likely case of when we got infected. I thought it was daughter bf who is staying with us and his father had it and he also tested positive. But before that, our mechanic, who’s now been on a respirator for almost a month!! He was a great mechanic, honest prices, but for being only 7-8 years older than me he looked in his 60s.. so not a healthy guy. My wife was in there one time where he was coughing like a diseased mule! Don’t know what that means but my wife was in there during this time and she said he was coughing like crazy the entire time she was In there. This was right before he was hospitalized and even said he thought he might have it. So I believe prolly she brought it in from him. He’s actually been transferred to one of the bigger hospitals in the City for further care. So this got him pretty good.

Anywho, lately BOTH my wife and I have been experience fairly severe low back pain. Which I’ve now seem to center on what would likely be sciatic nerve type pain. A few days ago, I was in so much pain where my legs were hurting so bad. I couldn’t even bend over to touch my toes without that nerve pain shooting thru the roof! My old lady has been complaining of the same low back pain for weeks, and it’s in the exact same spot. And idk, as soon as my pain came on, I could tell this wasn’t actually a physical back pain, but just something unusual.

Also we both have some sort of rash. Not bad, not super itchy, but some definitely tender spots. My daughter bf has been complaining of feeling hot, and my wife said he is super hot to the touch but has no fever.. So yeah, idk. Just weird stuff.

I’ve seen that they are kinda linking recovered patients with this nerve type pain and for ME my guess is it’s the sciatic nerve that got really flared up for some reason.

First off mojo for you, and your family's suffering.

This is a mad virus, it seems to be affecting different people in different ways.

I'm now at day 33, on Monday the covid centre doctor said I'm clear of the virus, and other possible complications, yet last weekend was probably the worst I've felt, struggling with breathing, and pissing with sweat even though I no longer have a temperature. Fortunately, my breathing is good again, and I'm not burning up anymore, but I've still got the headache and dizziness that's lasted over a month. The staff told me they'd had several people reporting similar issues.

On the docs advice, I'm currently doing 3 days of co-codamol and ibuprofen, rather than just the regular advised paracetamol, we'll see how that goes. All of this seems strange considering that I only had mild symptoms of the virus initially, it would appear that it's a sneaky bastard, the aftermath has been worse than the actual illness felt.

Hang in there dude.

Indeed. Get better!

[GuitarBilly]

A little update on my situation. Since my whole household has had the old Corona...

First let me say I’m not a Bill Gates conspirator, but if you ask me, he might be a Wolf in sheep’s clothing. At the least, I’m keeping my eyes on what happens with his involvement. He hasn’t been an “on the level” guy from the beginning if we are being honest. He’s stolen many ideas to make his dough. But whatver, I’m just saying I don’t fully trust his intentions, but I also don’t think he’s got some global elite level “politics” he’s enacting either. But he isn’t Mr. nice guy trying to help the world either. I don’t believe anyway. There is sumthin shady. Pure gut feel at this point. So innocent until proven guilty!

But back to the health issues that at this point we have to assume is Covid related. Since it’s being shared by more than one person in my house. But quickly let me back up, I may have singled out a more likely case of when we got infected. I thought it was daughter bf who is staying with us and his father had it and he also tested positive. But before that, our mechanic, who’s now been on a respirator for almost a month!! He was a great mechanic, honest prices, but for being only 7-8 years older than me he looked in his 60s.. so not a healthy guy. My wife was in there one time where he was coughing like a diseased mule! Don’t know what that means but my wife was in there during this time and she said he was coughing like crazy the entire time she was In there. This was right before he was hospitalized and even said he thought he might have it. So I believe prolly she brought it in from him. He’s actually been transferred to one of the bigger hospitals in the City for further care. So this got him pretty good.

Anywho, lately BOTH my wife and I have been experience fairly severe low back pain. Which I’ve now seem to center on what would likely be sciatic nerve type pain. A few days ago, I was in so much pain where my legs were hurting so bad. I couldn’t even bend over to touch my toes without that nerve pain shooting thru the roof! My old lady has been complaining of the same low back pain for weeks, and it’s in the exact same spot. And idk, as soon as my pain came on, I could tell this wasn’t actually a physical back pain, but just something unusual.

Also we both have some sort of rash. Not bad, not super itchy, but some definitely tender spots. My daughter bf has been complaining of feeling hot, and my wife said he is super hot to the touch but has no fever.. So yeah, idk. Just weird stuff.

I’ve seen that they are kinda linking recovered patients with this nerve type pain and for ME my guess is it’s the sciatic nerve that got really flared up for some reason.

damn dude!! Get better soon!!

[GuitarBilly]

Yeah I am very familiar with Origin and that's a good example. There are a lot of examples of competitive US manufacturing in the guitar industry too. It has nothing to do with govt incentives or lack thereof. The real issue is corporate's America mindset.

We love to look at our phones and tablets and think we're living in the future but in fact we're still living in the rear end of the 20th century, since the vast majority of people in positions of power in the public and private sectors are still people with a mid-century upbringing and mentality.
Think about where we were at this point in the last century (1920s) and compare it to where we got a few decades later (1940s, 50s and beyond). This will happen again in this century but it takes time because it's not only the technology that determines it, there is a human aspect to it as well. In other words, the old needs to die off first.

I think we will see a return of manufacturing to this country later on this century, but not as a job creator at all. On the contrary, at some point, the level and cost of automation will be at zero/near zero manpower making the cost difference between running production here or in China negligible, so you might as well run it here. It will also change how employment and income are perceived and there will be several paradigm shifts that will need to happen in a direction that is not quite clear yet, since right now we are in that weird phase where we are using new tech to do things the old way. But that will end eventually and then we can see what this century is really going to be like.

Hey you don't have to tell me man. I've been a part of automation applications where we're reshoring work that was once outsourced.

An example:
Company A used to make an agricultural product in the US, the team they employed to make said product was ~15 people and for the sake of the discussion we'll say their weekly output was 1000 units.
Company A outsourced this work to China and saved a lot of money. The weekly output (1000 units) and manufacturing style was still the same as before just now done using Chinese labor.
This goes on for years then the newly booming marijuana industry greatly increased the need for this product.

Company A invests ~$500k in automated equipment from a company I worked for and brought the production 100% back into the US.
With this equipment they produce 5000 units per week and employ 4 people to do it (this includes a supervisor and an engineer/technician role).

So yeah while making things here is great you're 100% right that it will not be a source of new job growth for the most part aside from the STEM jobs.
I mean just look at this example, before - 15 low skill workers, 1 supervisor at 1000 units per week. Now 2 laborers, 1 supervisor, and 1 high skilled worker at 5X the total output.

This is just one example just to give those unfamiliar an idea of exactly what you're talking about.
Yes we need to make things here but the whole "bring the jobs back" narrative is a false one. Those jobs didn't just leave to China, they left and will continue to leave to robots and automation.

yep, that's going to be one of the big paradigm shifts of this century. We currently see jobs as being society's fuel. As in, if people are not working, things are not being done or made. Automation will change that very very soon and disassociate production from manpower. I don't know what the end result of it will be though, but this shift is 100% coming within the next few decades.

[Ostinato Rubato]

The world waking up to the decades long lie of China being a good faith actor in the world economy and community of nations is a damn good thing.

I don't think there was a moment in modern history when the world was not aware that China is an awful actor and I doubt that a single outsourcing decision was made without this knowledge as well. The chinese govt is quite possibly the worst liar in history because everyone always knew what they're up to. These decisions were made because American businesses didn't care, not because they didn't know.

Do you think say, Nike executives don't know their shoes - which sell for about $60/pair here - are being made at sweatshops? Do you think they couldn't make a $60 pair of sneakers right here in the USA and still make quite a nice profit? Sure they could.
Their new CEO just took a $45M sign-in bonus, that's just to get the guy through the door...what if they gave the guy say a $4M welcome package instead (which is still a fuckton of money) how many US factory jobs could they afford with that 41M? and that's just a single instance, not even the tip of the iceberg... It's bullshit...

All of that is absolutely true. My real point is that the average person has long forgotten or been willfully ignorant those things for several decades because we are getting the things we want cheaper. There's also been a significant investment by the Chinese into our media institutions and they've been actively suppressing bad press and bad narratives, and influencing a positive image of China in our television shows and movies.

There hasn't been this level of scrutiny and criticism of China by the average American in a really long time.

[CptCyanide]

Yuppp

You will not find a bigger fan of capitalism then me on this site but that shit makes me cringe sometimes. I am 110% for bonuses/rewards and for hitting sales numbers or certain goals (no issues at all, in fact its a great incentive!) but i wonder what the board is doing with this type of mentality, i would be fine with a smaller bonus pf some kind but 40 million, based on what exactly?

Unless that person coming into the company REALLY has "the secret sauce" and can REALLY REALLY escalate the value of the company and being something of true value to the company i would understand that bonus a little more, BUT for a sneaker company thats already worth around 100 BILLION, i just dont know i font see it

While not illegal, it makes people scratch their heads and borderline unethical (like golden parachutes for CEO's but thats another story) it is similar to when goverment and companies get in bed together (happens all the time) and tax dollars are being wasted, etc - These are almost examples of 'crony capitalism' IMO

.

I'm a huge fan of capitalism myself. I think the best thing the govt can do for business is stay the fuck away from it.

That's why I said I don't think this is a political issue. It's a mentality issue.

As hard as the WWI/II and the great depression were on this country, it created a breed of people that were determined to get rich and make this country the best in the world and they sure did both really well.
Problem is they are long gone now and have been replaced by a mid-century generation of self entitled fucks that have not lived through any real hardship at all and have this absurd notion that our stability is a given.

Hopefully, what this pandemic will do is break the illusion that we're safe from real crisis here and change the mindset of businesses and consumers alike to the perils of international dependence on even the most basic necessities.

This is not a govt thing, I mean that's part of it too, but it's really something that has to shift in the mindset of American society.

Honestly, I don't think this crisis alone is enough to change this. It will take a few more serious crisis, as well as a major generational change in the power structure. So like 10-20 years.

It may not take 10-20 years... being pessimistic, a second wave in the fall in conjunction with flu season (which the CDC just warned about) coupled with premature easing of restrictions could make for a perfect storm. Last thing you would want economically is to reopen your economy and have companies, already financially crippled, start up manufacturing and production only to have another shut down. The debt undertaken to restart production with no market would likely tank most companies just barely making it through the first wave.

It’s interesting to see the US desperately trying to reopen despite having 1/4 of the total worldwide Corona deaths. The US peak was later than the many of the worst hit European countries, yet those places are still mostly locked down.

I’ve wondered if the general US opposition to social programs compared to Europe is part of the driving factor; the average US citizen has comparatively less support and thus needs to work to support themselves.

[GuitarBilly]

All of that is absolutely true. My real point is that the average person has long forgotten or been willfully ignorant those things for several decades because we are getting the things we want cheaper. There's also been a significant investment by the Chinese into our media institutions and they've been actively suppressing bad press and bad narratives, and influencing a positive image of China in our television shows and movies.

There hasn't been this level of scrutiny and criticism of China by the average American in a really long time.

Well they're not being forgetful or ignorant. They're being flat out lied to. And not by the Chinese or by any government for that matter. The American people is being lied to by American corporations, first and foremost.

And what's the lie? The lie is "we are getting the things we want cheaper". Are we, really? Let's use sneakers again as an example because it's an easy one:

It's true that outsourcing is the reason why you can go to Walmart and get a pair of unbranded sneakers for 10 bucks. And that's good for those who can only afford 10 bucks. We need these products to be available to the poorer people in our society. That's not really the issue.


Here where the issue is: when you go buy a "nice" pair of Nikes for say $60-100, that's ALSO made in China. Production cost was pretty much the same as the Walmart sneaker, however that is not being passed on to the customer AT ALL. So how's that driven by "we're getting things cheaper"?


How about that $2500 Gucci purse that most wives buy right before they tell you they want a divorce? That's also made in China. Can't purses be made for under $2500 in the US at a very hefty profit? Bullshit.

If affordability was the drive for outsourcing then we would have the more generic/cheaper stuff made there and the more expensive stuff made here, both with very healthy profit margins. Is that what's happening? No it's not. Both cheap AND expensive products are made overseas nowadays.


The other lie is that's just the company's fiduciary duty to their shareholders, to maximize profits. Really? When did an outsourcing move ever translate into significant gains to the stock? Sure, you get somewhat of a bump there but definitely not in line with what's being "cut", because it's not being cut at all, it's being shifted up top.

[TraumaRN]

All of that is absolutely true. My real point is that the average person has long forgotten or been willfully ignorant those things for several decades because we are getting the things we want cheaper. There's also been a significant investment by the Chinese into our media institutions and they've been actively suppressing bad press and bad narratives, and influencing a positive image of China in our television shows and movies.

There hasn't been this level of scrutiny and criticism of China by the average American in a really long time.

Well they're not being forgetful or ignorant. They're being flat out lied to. And not by the Chinese or by any government for that matter. The American people is being lied to by American corporations, first and foremost.



Holy Shit Billy. this entire thread has been railroaded with Political shit and endless innuendos. Stick to the Topic please or shut it down.
And what's the lie? The lie is "we are getting the things we want cheaper". Are we, really? Let's use sneakers again as an example because it's an easy one:

It's true that outsourcing is the reason why you can go to Walmart and get a pair of unbranded sneakers for 10 bucks. And that's good for those who can only afford 10 bucks. We need these products to be available to the poorer people in our society. That's not really the issue.


Here where the issue is: when you go buy a "nice" pair of Nikes for say $60-100, that's ALSO made in China. Production cost was pretty much the same as the Walmart sneaker, however that is not being passed on to the customer AT ALL. So how's that driven by "we're getting things cheaper"?


How about that $2500 Gucci purse that most wives buy right before they tell you they want a divorce? That's also made in China. Can't purses be made for under $2500 in the US at a very hefty profit? Bullshit.

If affordability was the drive for outsourcing then we would have the more generic/cheaper stuff made there and the more expensive stuff made here, both with very healthy profit margins. Is that what's happening? No it's not. Both cheap AND expensive products are made overseas nowadays.


The other lie is that's just the company's fiduciary duty to their shareholders, to maximize profits. Really? When did an outsourcing move ever translate into significant gains to the stock? Sure, you get somewhat of a bump there but definitely not in line with what's being "cut", because it's not being cut at all, it's being shifted up top.