"I can't use a click track 'cause it messes with my timing"

[long standing member]

Yep, our drummer is saying that.

He's speeding up during songs, and the bass player and I prefer to play to a constant beat ( )

The drummer seems to be a relative decent guy and there are no other drummers available, so we can't ditch him.

I'm sure somebody out there has handled this and could give me ideas....

[IndyWS6]

This doesn't help, but I'm in the same boat. I feel like I have a good sense of timing, and I can stay in lock-step with a drummer or bass player, but I can't stay in time to a click-track through headphones or in-ears. If the track is playing loudly over a monitor, I'm fine. But that's pretty useless. In headphones or in-ears, I get lost. Maybe the drummer has the same issue?

[long standing member]

This doesn't help, but I'm in the same boat. I feel like I have a good sense of timing, and I can stay in lock-step with a drummer or bass player, but I can't stay in time to a click-track through headphones or in-ears. If the track is playing loudly over a monitor, I'm fine. But that's pretty useless. In headphones or in-ears, I get lost. Maybe the drummer has the same issue?

Wow, this got interesting......I thought playing to a click track was the easiest thing in the world.........click track goes into my subconscious, and I just follow along.

Good to know that my drummer isn't an outlier wack job

[newholland]

i hate them because songs can't speed up or contract without hearing the damn insistant CLAK CLaK CLAK. i mean.. humans do that- they speed up and slow down. if you need assistance, put a reference blinking metronome out. but having that shit in my cans is maddening. im not gridding or using midi tracks, im playing in a band.

now if you have a drummer whos ALWAYS inconsistent... hes just not a good drummer.

[EndTime]

As a drummer who has and hasn’t played to a click. I think it’s pretty simple.

I mean, if he’s a bad drummer he’s gonna struggle with a click. A little tempo fluctuations are cool by me. I’m a pretty tight drummer as is, but I definitely like the freedom to slow down or speed up certain sections depending on the day or whatver. I feel I do it with a good read on the band on that day or show. I mean, unless you’ve played aumthing a thousand times, there’s always ideas that may take a song to a different more interesting place. I’m mainly only playing originals but even if I was in a cover band, if one day slowing a part down felt good for everyone, then why not? How else to keep playing fun and interesting.


But I’ve played to a click for one situation for nearly 2 years cause we had no option. As I was playing along to recorded guitar tracks when our guitarist left and I recorded the guitars and was able to keep the band moving forward at that time until we found someone new.

It isn’t like one can IMMEDIATELY grab onto playing with a click. Cause there are a ton of songs and parts you’d find yourself pushing the tempo or whatnot as the drummer. And playing drums is MOrE difficult with a click then playing guitar to a click, for example. Drums are percussive and it’s very easy to sway off the click in the headset even when you feel consistent. But usually after a few run thrus of each song I can recognize which parts I’m pushing or pulling off the click. And eventually one can actually push and pull WITH the click. But yeah. If your drummer is solid then I don’t really see a need for a click. If he’s not very good and his tempos are seriously off, then a click will help but it’s gonna be a rough process

[emin]

We tried to use a click in a band I was in years ago. It didn't go well. We'd drift off the click after just a few measures.

Turns out the problem was the drummer couldn't hear the click while we were playing. It was kind of funny. We'd turn up the click, and he'd play harder/louder and we'd drift off again.

Finally solved it by getting lucky and running into a better drummer.

[newholland]

another thing you can try is subdividing. i FREAKING hate 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4. it makes me nuts. but triplets? or every other beat, but LOUD.. i can deal with that. everybody can deal with different things. half time drives me literally 1/10th as crazy as some stupid inflexible beat. quarter time can sometimes work. but it's gotta work with the player and the song.

but god, if it's bangin out on the beat every damn beat... makes me feel like a robot.

[Ostinato Rubato]

Finally solved it by getting lucky and running into a better drummer.

Better drummer is the answer.

[GuitarBilly]

Yeah I never really thought the ability to play with a click live is that important unless the drummer is really unsteady. But a few variations here and there is fine.

These days I'm playing with synths/drum machines and that kind of environment is extremely unforgiving to any variation, so staying with a click is key. If you go even slightly off its blatant.

It took me a while to get used to it but it's been a good experience. But what I've found is the switch has to be universal. I have a small digital metronome here and I always run it nowadays even when I am just noodling. That way the click just becomes part of your playing. If you are only going to use the click when you're playing with the band or recording, you will have a harder time adapting to it. It has to be a daily thing, at least until it becomes second nature.

But with a drummer small variations are normal. I wouldn't worry too much about it unless he's effectively killing the groove.

[ajaxlepinski]

If your drummer can't keep a steady beat, ask him to practice, at home, along with some CDs or MP3s of his favorite band.
It shouldn't take him more than a half an hour to figure it out and get locked in.
It will be more comfortable and less embarrassing for him to figure it out on his own than to try to do it with the band.

Once his timing improves, your band won't need a click track at rehearsal or on stage.
I would never want to play with a click track on stage, unless I had to play with prerecorded music or a programmed synth.
Most of the songs that my band plays have tempo changes so, a click track would be impossible to use.

[crankyrayhanky]

^ good ideas. This can be a band killer. I had a drummer who was all over the place, we tried to encourage him to work on getting better, but he just liked playing and drinking beer with his bros (us). When the band got a little success, the singer fired him and of course, led to the disintegration of the project after a myriad of pro fill-ins.

[Marc G]

when I first started doing work in studios the click would bother me... not so much a timing thing but the sound was just distracting.... once I learnt to hear but ignore it in a way I didn't have any issues.... EXCEPT if I'm playing a guitar part with a nasty swing to it, then I'm doomed lol

[IndyWS6]

This doesn't help, but I'm in the same boat. I feel like I have a good sense of timing, and I can stay in lock-step with a drummer or bass player, but I can't stay in time to a click-track through headphones or in-ears. If the track is playing loudly over a monitor, I'm fine. But that's pretty useless. In headphones or in-ears, I get lost. Maybe the drummer has the same issue?

Wow, this got interesting......I thought playing to a click track was the easiest thing in the world.........click track goes into my subconscious, and I just follow along.

Good to know that my drummer isn't an outlier wack job

We could both be outlier wack jobs

I can play with a click, just not in headphones or in-ears. I'm not really sure why, but I think it's a spatial thing. If I have the DAW running with a click track and I play along with the output on studio monitors, I'm good. If I do the same thing with headphones, it screws me up. I should probably work on that...

[skybluegary]

Finally solved it by getting lucky and running into a better drummer.

Better drummer is the answer.

This!

[fretless]

Everyone has musical shortcomings. You either work with it as a band or solve it some other way but whatever it is you can’t fix it by force. Beatles didn’t track with a click and they went off meter on many recordings which adds to the greatness of those recordings. Clicks became common in the 80’s iirc. All bands go off tempo especially live. As a bass player this actually doesn’t bother me that much. Off feel and chops or the lack thereof is much more annoying.

[long standing member]

Well, given the feeback here, I'll try to lighten up....

BTW, I'm talking about making ONLY the drummer listen to a click, b/c I rely on him to set the tempo....I always make him call out the opening"one-two-three-four" (actually wack the drumsticks) instead of someone else b/c I feel strongly that it's his job to set the beat for the whole song. The bassist and I can hear him speeding up more and more as the song goes on. It's not like some creative push/pull to make the song better.

I'm talking about rehersals for live shows, not recording tracks, not everybody using IE's with a click track, and there's no digital stuff going on. Just 3 humanoids trying to make music.

I like the idea of

If your drummer can't keep a steady beat, ask him to practice, at home, along with some CDs or MP3s of his favorite band.
It shouldn't take him more than a half an hour to figure it out and get locked in.
It will be more comfortable and less embarrassing for him to figure it out on his own than to try to do it with the band.

Sounds like the easiest solution to get him to cooperate.....

[skybluegary]

Well, given the feeback here, I'll try to lighten up....

BTW, I'm talking about making ONLY the drummer listen to a click, b/c I rely on him to set the tempo....I always make him call out the opening"one-two-three-four" (actually wack the drumsticks) instead of someone else b/c I feel strongly that it's his job to set the beat for the whole song. The bassist and I can hear him speeding up more and more as the song goes on. It's not like some creative push/pull to make the song better.

I'm talking about rehersals for live shows, not recording tracks, not everybody using IE's with a click track, and there's no digital stuff going on. Just 3 humanoids trying to make music.

I like the idea of

If your drummer can't keep a steady beat, ask him to practice, at home, along with some CDs or MP3s of his favorite band.
It shouldn't take him more than a half an hour to figure it out and get locked in.
It will be more comfortable and less embarrassing for him to figure it out on his own than to try to do it with the band.

Sounds like the easiest solution to get him to cooperate.....

Dunno dude, my experience of people who can't play in time is that they can't be taught to do it. Personally, I'd look for someone else, or even use a drum machine. Best of luck though.

[thisguy]

Well, given the feeback here, I'll try to lighten up....

BTW, I'm talking about making ONLY the drummer listen to a click, b/c I rely on him to set the tempo....I always make him call out the opening"one-two-three-four" (actually wack the drumsticks) instead of someone else b/c I feel strongly that it's his job to set the beat for the whole song. The bassist and I can hear him speeding up more and more as the song goes on. It's not like some creative push/pull to make the song better.

I'm talking about rehersals for live shows, not recording tracks, not everybody using IE's with a click track, and there's no digital stuff going on. Just 3 humanoids trying to make music.

I like the idea of

If your drummer can't keep a steady beat, ask him to practice, at home, along with some CDs or MP3s of his favorite band.
It shouldn't take him more than a half an hour to figure it out and get locked in.
It will be more comfortable and less embarrassing for him to figure it out on his own than to try to do it with the band.

Sounds like the easiest solution to get him to cooperate.....

Dunno dude, my experience of people who can't play in time is that they can't be taught to do it. Personally, I'd look for someone else, or even use a drum machine. Best of luck though.

Similar to what I was going to say. So the guy can't keep time but a half hour of of practicing with recordings is all it's going to take for him to figure it out and lock it in? Riiiiggggghhhhhtttttt.

[ajaxlepinski]

Well, given the feeback here, I'll try to lighten up....

BTW, I'm talking about making ONLY the drummer listen to a click, b/c I rely on him to set the tempo....I always make him call out the opening"one-two-three-four" (actually wack the drumsticks) instead of someone else b/c I feel strongly that it's his job to set the beat for the whole song. The bassist and I can hear him speeding up more and more as the song goes on. It's not like some creative push/pull to make the song better.

I'm talking about rehersals for live shows, not recording tracks, not everybody using IE's with a click track, and there's no digital stuff going on. Just 3 humanoids trying to make music.

I like the idea of

If your drummer can't keep a steady beat, ask him to practice, at home, along with some CDs or MP3s of his favorite band.
It shouldn't take him more than a half an hour to figure it out and get locked in.
It will be more comfortable and less embarrassing for him to figure it out on his own than to try to do it with the band.

Sounds like the easiest solution to get him to cooperate.....

Dunno dude, my experience of people who can't play in time is that they can't be taught to do it. Personally, I'd look for someone else, or even use a drum machine. Best of luck though.

Similar to what I was going to say. So the guy can't keep time but a half hour of of practicing with recordings is all it's going to take for him to figure it out and lock it in? Riiiiggggghhhhhtttttt.

Only one way to find out.
Most bands will sneer at their drummer and give him bad vibes, if he tries to learn timing, during a practice.
Band practice is not a good place for any drummer work on timing.

[madkeithv]

There's a difference between a drummer learning to play with a click, and a drummer who can't play to a click. Practicing with CDs isn't going to help with the latter. I'm currently playing with a drummer like that - he plays along and *thinks* he's fine, because he's so focused on his own playing that he doesn't actually hear how off he is, and thinks that he's just correcting a little bit here and there. When it gets to practice, if it's a song he doesn't know 100% we are absolutely buggered, because he WILL drift, and look at the rest of the band like it's their fault.
I'm the vocalist, and half the time he's looking at *me* for the timing.
There was a discussion about click tracks a few weeks back, and the guy reacted like we were discussing taking away his reason to live. He said he needed to be able to play with feel, drag and speed up, which are all fine arguments if you can actually keep time and are a good drummer, but that's really not what he is.

Now to be clear, I'm fine with all of this. I live in the middle of nowhere, and considering the language barrier I'm really damn lucky to have found a bunch of people who enjoy playing some music I also like. I have zero ambition with this band - unlike the drummer, which I find humorous - I just want to have a good time once a week exercising my voice and slowly picking up some guitar again. I can feel how this has started to drag on the other two members of the band though - a really laid back bass player/vocalist, and a guitarist who could actually be really good if he was surrounded by better musicians.

Adding all things up, I'd rather rejig the playlist to songs the drummer can play and enjoy along with the rest of the band. I want to really "get into the music" when playing live, put on a show, not like in my old technical death metal bands. You know the type - playing so technical that you can't move around or even take your eyes off the fretboard for any length of time. If I want to play technical music, I'll do it at home to programmed drums.

[Zozobra]

I have over the years played with a few drummers who were starting out.

The first realized that he was the talent bottleneck and put in the hours with the sticks to improve.
The second was always trying to run before he could walk. I get that it's good to push yourself but he needed to lock the fundamentals down first before trying to get flash. I mostly played lead in that band and more often than not I was the master clock to boot, which isn't ideal! It was just a goof off with friends though and nothing all that serious so it was kinda fine.

The best advice that I hear for this kind of thing is to encourage the drummer to practice nailing the rudimentary patterns or combinations thereof to a metronome on a practice pad.

[Devin]

I remember this struggle


Maybe he could try one of those little pulse metronomes that you feel rather than hear? I've never used one but it's an idea

[ajaxlepinski]

Of course, it the drummer is an old dog (obtuse and obstinate) he won't want to learn anything.
However, if the band is supportive and the drummer lives on the right side of the bell curve, there is no reason he can't learn timing.

Tell him that, when he practices with a CD (or metronome), it will sound like it's speeding up and slowing down.
Tell him that, it will take a bit of getting used to and to start off just on the snare and kick.
Follow up with, "I believe in you! You CAN do it!! WE LIKE YOU MAN!!!""
If he can't pick it up with a week or two of home practice, at least you know you did the right thing and tried.
I really think he can do it.

[nightflameauto]

As someone that began my musical journey in orchestra and was taught to always, always, ALWAYS practice with a metronome going, I have a hard time with folks that just flat out say they "can't" play to a click. When I started up with drums, even the simplest exercises I did I had the metronome going. Now, I'm not saying I'm good with drums, but I am steady rhythmically.

I can get people that have actual arguments against rock drummers playing with a click. Like some bands love to push and pull between chorus and verse and it totally works. Some bands like to speed up that last bridge section and really plow through the finish. And sometimes there's magic in the flexibility. But if there's a band member that can't hold a beat, and I've met too many drummers that think they're working magic when in reality they're constantly speeding up with no feel for the song, they need to learn to play to a click or a metronome for their own personal practice just to start getting steadier.

"Can't" is not a word that should apply to being able to play to a click. "Won't" for real philosophical reasons? Maybe. "Can't" can fuck right off on home.

[Maddnotez]

Tough situation and I am sure most have been there. For me, I prefer a click but there are certain parts in my music that FEEL is more important and has a better impact.

My only answer to your drummer is track with superior drummer 3 and tell him he either needs to deal with it or get better.

If he is one of those guys who refuses you will have to make a choice. Never record an album or never play live. You could pay thousands for someone to edit the crap out of your drum tracks but that is a lot of heartache.