I almost don't want to live in America anymore...

[madryan]

What entitles the government to your earnings?


I understand we need taxes to function (duuuhhh) but this notion that the government is loosing $$ is amazing. The federal USA budget has doubled from 2001 to 2012 from (1.8 trillion to 3.8 trillion) these are rough numbers but has anyone on this board had their salary double in the past 10 years? That's a astounding rate of growth for a short time, im sorry it is!


Im saying it tongue in cheek, --- but we CANNOT continue to grow the goverment at this pace, it will be our downfall - whatever the reason we need to slow down spending. Im all for cutting aid, closing bases, etc but we CANNOT have the federal treasury be so big.

I'm totally with you. My mom's a non-prof developer and has to deal with HUD all the time and they're retards.

What I'm saying is why should one American citizen making "X" amount of money get a tax break when another citizen making as much or less have to pay much more?

My point is that taxes should be fair, and there's a million different definitions of what that means but I think we can agree that people making 50x more than their employees should be paying a higher percentage in taxes.

[madryan]

We absolutely need taxes. Corporate taxes need to be competitive for a 1st world country. We are 2nd highest as it stands.

Personal income needs to be flat, across the board. 15 for state, 5 for federal.

Any money earned is commercial and goes back to corp tax. So if corp tax is 10%, capital gains/dividends, etc are all taxed at 10%.

Personally, I'd get rid of corporate taxes and only raise personal taxes on income levels commensurate with the way they were last time our economy was solid.

[Dave]

I don't agree with that.


I think poor people need to start paying taxes.

[Lloyd Blankfein]

We absolutely need taxes. Corporate taxes need to be competitive for a 1st world country. We are 2nd highest as it stands.

Personal income needs to be flat, across the board. 15 for state, 5 for federal.

Any money earned is commercial and goes back to corp tax. So if corp tax is 10%, capital gains/dividends, etc are all taxed at 10%.

Personally, I'd get rid of corporate taxes and only raise personal taxes on income levels commensurate with the way they were last time our economy was solid.

I disagree. We need a fair system. The fairest is a flat number. It's the only way. Everyone gives up the same size of their money.

I'd get rid of federal taxes all together- let the states chip in on what's fair. It'll be flat, but lets let the states fight that fight. It's time they got their power back.

[madryan]

We absolutely need taxes. Corporate taxes need to be competitive for a 1st world country. We are 2nd highest as it stands.

Personal income needs to be flat, across the board. 15 for state, 5 for federal.

Any money earned is commercial and goes back to corp tax. So if corp tax is 10%, capital gains/dividends, etc are all taxed at 10%.

Personally, I'd get rid of corporate taxes and only raise personal taxes on income levels commensurate with the way they were last time our economy was solid.

I disagree. We need a fair system. The fairest is a flat number. It's the only way. Everyone gives up the same size of their money.

I'd get rid of federal taxes all together- let the states chip in on what's fair. It'll be flat, but lets let the states fight that fight. It's time they got their power back.

Flat tax completely ignores a bunch of economic truths like MPC and whatnot. If you want to destroy the economy by all means go that way.

IF you factor in MPC, then a "progressive" tax is actually a relatively "flat" tax. Wrap your head around that for a sec...

[Lloyd Blankfein]

We absolutely need taxes. Corporate taxes need to be competitive for a 1st world country. We are 2nd highest as it stands.

Personal income needs to be flat, across the board. 15 for state, 5 for federal.

Any money earned is commercial and goes back to corp tax. So if corp tax is 10%, capital gains/dividends, etc are all taxed at 10%.

Personally, I'd get rid of corporate taxes and only raise personal taxes on income levels commensurate with the way they were last time our economy was solid.

I disagree. We need a fair system. The fairest is a flat number. It's the only way. Everyone gives up the same size of their money.

I'd get rid of federal taxes all together- let the states chip in on what's fair. It'll be flat, but lets let the states fight that fight. It's time they got their power back.

Flat tax completely ignores a bunch of economic truths like MPC and whatnot. If you want to destroy the economy by all means go that way.

IF you factor in MPC, then a "progressive" tax is actually a relatively "flat" tax. Wrap your head around that for a sec...

There's nothing flat about a person paying nothing and me paying 100K.

If we pay 10%, then someone pays 2 grand, and someone making 100k pays 10k.

That's fair.

If your son was in class and got straight A's and another kid gets an F, how would you feel if your son had to pick up his slack by getting a C so the other kid could get a C as well.

Keep in mind, F student is poor, mom is a crack addict, he doesn't get fed and also has no control of having sex.

Is that fair?

[Lloyd Blankfein]

Taxes keep people involved and thinking with their votes.

The reason we have horrible elected officials is because most of these dipshits never feel the consequence.

It's easy to sit in the streets screaming for Obama phones and everything else when they pay no taxes.

You start making these losers pay taxes, they might, jus might start giving a shit and thinking real hard before they vote for something.

The lower class is completely removed. They don't pay for shit, what do they care.

[madryan]

We absolutely need taxes. Corporate taxes need to be competitive for a 1st world country. We are 2nd highest as it stands.

Personal income needs to be flat, across the board. 15 for state, 5 for federal.

Any money earned is commercial and goes back to corp tax. So if corp tax is 10%, capital gains/dividends, etc are all taxed at 10%.

Personally, I'd get rid of corporate taxes and only raise personal taxes on income levels commensurate with the way they were last time our economy was solid.

I disagree. We need a fair system. The fairest is a flat number. It's the only way. Everyone gives up the same size of their money.

I'd get rid of federal taxes all together- let the states chip in on what's fair. It'll be flat, but lets let the states fight that fight. It's time they got their power back.

Flat tax completely ignores a bunch of economic truths like MPC and whatnot. If you want to destroy the economy by all means go that way.

IF you factor in MPC, then a "progressive" tax is actually a relatively "flat" tax. Wrap your head around that for a sec...

There's nothing flat about a person paying nothing and me paying 100K.

If we pay 10%, then someone pays 2 grand, and someone making 100k pays 10k.

That's fair.

If your son was in class and got straight A's and another kid gets an F, how would you feel if your son had to pick up his slack by getting a C so the other kid could get a C as well.

Keep in mind, F student is poor, mom is a crack addict, he doesn't get fed and also has no control of having sex.

Is that fair?

So if we account for MPC which is a very real and important economic fact, we need to look at how much a person spends to live on as a percentage of their income. If you're relatively poor or even lower middle class you basically spend everything you make every month to get by. This means by getting taxed at that flat 10% you're getting taxed on 100% of your income you use to live off of.

Someone who makes quite a bit more, say $500k a year, has only slightly higher living expenses. Sure, they have a nicer car most likely and a nicer house, but they have the same caloric requirements and whatnot. If they want to go ski in Aspen vs. going to the local beach that's a choice but by no means required. So their MPC is quite a bit different. They can pay their $50k in taxes, live off some of their other income and have a bunch left over. Someone who makes lots of money? Millions? A 10% tax is laughable. They're living off a tiny percentage of their income, they're paying an equally tiny amount in taxes and banking the rest so they're paying a much lower effective tax rate.

That's why flat taxes aren't really "fair" at all.

[madryan]

Taxes keep people involved and thinking with their votes.

The reason we have horrible elected officials is because most of these dipshits never feel the consequence.

It's easy to sit in the streets screaming for Obama phones and everything else when they pay no taxes.

You start making these losers pay taxes, they might, jus might start giving a shit and thinking real hard before they vote for something.

The lower class is completely removed. They don't pay for shit, what do they care.

Just who do you think fights the wars which are started by the retards in government? It's not the rich kids.

[Dickarms]

it would have to a loooooooooong slow move, but thats what tax model we should be on if everyone wants to stop bitching.

[***1776***]

Something that is not brought up enough is the lower wages for the middle class undercut by illegals and off the book workers


I know people in all types of construction from flooring, to roofing, iron workers, regular grunts, etc, etc and the amount of illegals willing to do work at 25% or 50% cheaper has a VERY NEGATIVE effects on the earnings power of the people in that field or sector. This is NEVER EVER brought up by the media or politicians but should be


If you want a real discussion on wages, this has to be included as well imo

[ComOp]

Something that is not brought up enough is the lower wages for the middle class undercut by illegals and off the book workers

You are confusing middle class with working class.

[sleewell]

My house has many leather bound books and smells of a rich mahogany

[rear naked]

a flat tax rate is not a fair system...although the idea of a fair tax system is pretty much ridiculous.

The reason why a flat rate tax is unfair is the same reason that a flat dollar amount tax is unfair, just not nearly as bad.

In my opinion, the best we can hope for in a tax system is that we take an amount of money from each bracket, such that each bracket is giving up the same amount of utility (on average). This is about as fair as it gets in my opinion, although it wont be fair in a strict sense. With that in mind, a flat dollar amount tax is pretty much unfair by definition, given the rule of declining marginal utility. A flat rate tax could theoretically be fair (by my definition of fair) depending on the utility function of the average person, but it just likely isn't if you give it a cursory thought. If I have to eat on $10 per day, losing $2 fucks my day substantially more than if I eat on $40 per day and I lose $8. My personal utility function tells me that a flat rate tax would not be fair, and although it might be for you, it probably isn't, and I'm sure most people would agree with me. The utility function is different for each person, so that introduces a level of unfairness because you would be lumped in with the other people. The real bummer is that the utility function is apparently difficult to really measure (I think)...so...lol

So it might be realistic that taking a large chunk of money from the rich is equivalent to taking effectively nothing from the poor, depending on how the average Joe views his money.




EDIT - the utility function is a curve that plots dollar amount vs utiles (the make believe unit of utility in economist speak)


Basically, my point is that a flat tax rate might be fair, but only if it works out that way considering my perspective on what makes a fair tax.

It might even call for a regressive tax with respect to percentages.


EDIT - mostly im just rambling and I dont know wtf im talking about

[Lloyd Blankfein]

Something that is not brought up enough is the lower wages for the middle class undercut by illegals and off the book workers


I know people in all types of construction from flooring, to roofing, iron workers, regular grunts, etc, etc and the amount of illegals willing to do work at 25% or 50% cheaper has a VERY NEGATIVE effects on the earnings power of the people in that field or sector. This is NEVER EVER brought up by the media or politicians but should be


If you want a real discussion on wages, this has to be included as well imo

Well, what Mexican immigrants do is painfully prove the real worth of jobs.

In my opinion, they lift the tent door up on what jobs are truly worth and it pisses off the lazy people.

The janitor who thinks he's worth 15/hr with benefits hates the Mexican because he'll do it for 5/hr, etc.

Not all Mexicans are working for small potatos either. I think that's kind of a myth because in my experience, they don't show up for less than 9-10/hr.

I can never prove the legal status of my workers, and by discrimination/law I can't ask other than an address, SS card and driver's license.

However, these Mexican Americans in my outfit make $30/hr+. No bullshit.

And you know what? They're worth every penny. I wish I could get them more because I truly enjoy them, being around them, witnessing their structure and seeing them have kids who goto college, etc.

No homo, but it is truly touching. It gives me a lot of satisfaction to see them live the dream. Illegal or not.

[~Abstract~]

a flat tax rate is not a fair system...

Devils Advocate...



How so?

[Krunchmeister]

No just Reagan worshippers who think that God hates the poor. Maybe they should focus more on how much Jesus loved the poor.

I live in a right -wing religous GOP town. The locals built a homeless shelter a few years back and its been filled with poor white folks. Recently the city council voted to close the homeless shelter and boot the occupants into the street. The locals managed to raise enough signatures to ask the city council to allow a millage vote to fund the shelter this next election . The council over-rode the possibility of a general election vote and refuses to hear discussions at the town meetings on the subject. They are all republicans and recently voted themselves raises!

[rear naked]

a flat tax rate is not a fair system...

Devils Advocate...



How so?

I edited my reply

[wrongnote85]

holy fucking multiquote GABman!

[Krunchmeister]

Something that is not brought up enough is the lower wages for the middle class undercut by illegals and off the book workers


I know people in all types of construction from flooring, to roofing, iron workers, regular grunts, etc, etc and the amount of illegals willing to do work at 25% or 50% cheaper has a VERY NEGATIVE effects on the earnings power of the people in that field or sector. This is NEVER EVER brought up by the media or politicians but should be


If you want a real discussion on wages, this has to be included as well imo

Well, what Mexican immigrants do is painfully prove the real worth of jobs.

In my opinion, they lift the tent door up on what jobs are truly worth and it pisses off the lazy people.

The janitor who thinks he's worth 15/hr with benefits hates the Mexican because he'll do it for 5/hr, etc.

Not all Mexicans are working for small potatos either. I think that's kind of a myth because in my experience, they don't show up for less than 9-10/hr.

I can never prove the legal status of my workers, and by discrimination/law I can't ask other than an address, SS card and driver's license.

However, these Mexican Americans in my outfit make $30/hr+. No bullshit.

And you know what? They're worth every penny. I wish I could get them more because I truly enjoy them, being around them, witnessing their structure and seeing them have kids who goto college, etc.

No homo, but it is truly touching. It gives me a lot of satisfaction to see them live the dream. Illegal or not.

Theres so much condescension in this post I want to barf. Its akin to someone bragging about how well he treats a dog that he saved from the needle at the animal shelter! Yessiree we needs more of them good uns.

[Lloyd Blankfein]

Something that is not brought up enough is the lower wages for the middle class undercut by illegals and off the book workers


I know people in all types of construction from flooring, to roofing, iron workers, regular grunts, etc, etc and the amount of illegals willing to do work at 25% or 50% cheaper has a VERY NEGATIVE effects on the earnings power of the people in that field or sector. This is NEVER EVER brought up by the media or politicians but should be


If you want a real discussion on wages, this has to be included as well imo

Well, what Mexican immigrants do is painfully prove the real worth of jobs.

In my opinion, they lift the tent door up on what jobs are truly worth and it pisses off the lazy people.

The janitor who thinks he's worth 15/hr with benefits hates the Mexican because he'll do it for 5/hr, etc.

Not all Mexicans are working for small potatos either. I think that's kind of a myth because in my experience, they don't show up for less than 9-10/hr.

I can never prove the legal status of my workers, and by discrimination/law I can't ask other than an address, SS card and driver's license.

However, these Mexican Americans in my outfit make $30/hr+. No bullshit.

And you know what? They're worth every penny. I wish I could get them more because I truly enjoy them, being around them, witnessing their structure and seeing them have kids who goto college, etc.

No homo, but it is truly touching. It gives me a lot of satisfaction to see them live the dream. Illegal or not.

Theres so much condescension in this post I want to barf. Its akin to someone bragging about how well he treats a dog that he saved from the needle at the animal shelter! Yessiree we needs more of them good uns.

Then you completely missed the point.

[Dave]

I don't understand the problem with paying a janitor $15 an hour plus benefits.

I don't think we should be so quick to abandon our own citizens due to cutthroat manual labor from under the table workers. When these janitors lose the ability to contribute to the economy, we end up supporting them through welfare/unemployment so an illegal worker can make $5 per hour and pay no tax.

It's extremely short sighted.

[rear naked]

[sleewell]

the problem we are running into is that many of the new jobs being created are extremely low income, non full-time or temporary positions with no benefits. so it almost encourages people to suck the govt teat and is also driving up the cost of health care bc all people have for health care is the ER. there are so many assistance programs that you can live decently by not working or maybe work some side job under the table for extra money so you can have flat screens and iphones.

i dont hate on rich people for being rich but the wealth gap is widening and there are very alarming issues. even though they find loop holes in the tax system they still pay an enormous % of the taxes. its odd. they complain about people leeching off the govt yet by the policies they are emplimenting within their companies they are making the problems worse not better soley for the bottom line near term profit margin. most have no idea what it means to be poor or be hungry and think all it takes is pulling up your boot straps.

[Dave]

Look at Canada's immigration policy. They protect their low income people.